Fog machines

Wed, 17 Feb 2010, 01:51 pm

robhofen19 posts in thread

Hello i have a inquiry about the use of Fog machines in a theater. Is there any licences or regulations that regulate the use of these device in theaters if so what are they? Thanks Robert Hofen

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robhofenWed, 17 Feb 2010, 01:51 pm

Hello i have a inquiry about the use of Fog machines in a theater. Is there any licences or regulations that regulate the use of these device in theaters if so what are they? Thanks Robert Hofen

David AshtonWed, 17 Feb 2010, 04:50 pm

There are no special

There are no special regulations, but be wary of smoke alarms and some venues will not allow them to be used as it means the smoke alarms have to be isolated, and either they don't know how to do it or the company charges a lot of money to come in and isolate the alarm and then to reset it after the show.So, no regulations but they can be a pain.

NaWed, 17 Feb 2010, 05:53 pm

Aren't there requirements

Aren't there requirements for signage if fog machines are used? Your source for handmade shadow puppets at Puppets in Melbourne

anothertechWed, 17 Feb 2010, 06:23 pm

You need to contact your

You need to contact your state and local councils for any relevant legislation. In WA the City of Stirling ban the use of smoke machines in their Osborne Park Community centre 5.3. SMOKE MACHINES ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED. It is the hirer’s responsibility to inform the DJ/event operator that smoke machines or similar are strictly prohibited. The entire bond will be automatically forfeited to the City of Stirling should it be found that a smoke machine or similar has been used. The City of Stirling and the Fire and Emergency Services Authority of WA reserve the right to instigate legal action against any hirer who uses a smoke machine or similar. From reading the above clause, it would appear that the ban has come about due to the triggering of fire alarms by the use of smoke machines. In overseas countries, a fire warden has to be employed when building smoke alarms are isolated for the use of smoke machines. If the promoter wants to use smoke, he pays the extra cost and passes the cost on to the patrons. A search on the web for smoke machine regulations produced similar regulations to do with setting of fire alarms. This section from Monash University covers most aspects of smoke or fog useage. Smoke NO SMOKE IS TO BE USED IN THE THEATRE SPACE Without authorisation from DTS Staff. This is due to the need for the isolation of the smoke detectors in the space from the rest of the PAC Building. However, when permitted, PLEASE note the following. â€¢Most theatrical smoke is non-toxic and non-irritant, however it should still be used with care. â€¢Don’t attempt to release smoke before the machine has heated up - this can result in slippery oil being released onto the stage. â€¢Smoke machines have parts that get very hot when in use, wait for them to cool down before putting them away, and beware of the nozzle. â€¢Do not leave a smoke machine switched on for long periods unattended, and never cover the smoke machine with anything. It could impede ventilation. â€¢Avoid firing smoke directly at people, fabrics or equipment. The operator should always have a clear view of the area around the smoke machine. â€¢Never use more smoke than necessary, and in particular avoid dense clouds over the audience or on a dance floor. Anything which cuts down visibility is potentially dangerous. Small and frequent puffs, to allow time for dispersal, works best. â€¢Be careful using smoke around smoke detectors, some brands of smoke fluid can set off the fire alarms causing great inconvenience. â€¢If using smoke on stage, make sure that everyone knows it’s coming. There is no mention of fog or smoke as in theatrical effect smoke in the WA Health Public Buildings Regulations 1992.

NaWed, 17 Feb 2010, 06:40 pm

It may help to point out

It may help to point out the OP is in Victoria, and laws may be different there (er, here). I'm not sure whether there is a legal requirement, but I know at uni we put up signage whenever we used the fog machine. It may be worth checking out www.alia.com.au. EDIT: Interestingly, on the Business.gov site, you can do a search for licences. If you put in your business (ie. theatre) and postcode, it comes up with a checklist of questions which you can fill out: http://services.business.vic.gov.au/licences/prod/my-business-2 I didn't see a specific question about fog and other machinery, but it may be worth looking at anyway. Your source for handmade shadow puppets at Puppets in Melbourne

robhofenWed, 17 Feb 2010, 06:50 pm

thanks i have used Fog

thanks i have used Fog machines many times before. Im still at school. And the SRC got a Fog machine for use in Drama Department productions, and for use in the Music Departments shows (Which i manage the lighting for) and a teacher came up to me and told me that you need a licence to Operate a Fog machine. And i told him i would check it out. But he may of been refering to a pyrotechnicians licence which covers stage Pyrotechnics which im not using. Thanks Again

NaWed, 17 Feb 2010, 07:27 pm

As far as I know (don't

As far as I know (don't quote me on this, I'm not a lawyer), there's no requirement for a certificate for operating a fog machine. I've operated one at uni, and I wasn't certified (I'm in Melbourne), however if required to use pyrotechnics, rigging (not lighting rigging, but actually rigging of flies, etc) or testing and tagging of equipment, you'd definitely need a licence. I would recommend you and your teacher check out ALIA, which is an excellent resource for technical production in Australia (they have forums there too), ask the school itself to investigate (surely they have access to a lawyer or similar service), or to contact the Arts Law Centre of Australia (who I believe may still offer a free advice phone service). EDIT: I would add that regular theatrical venues might have different regulations than schools, given that schools are educational facilities with the possibility of students running, being involved, or at the least, being around, highly technical and potentially dangerous equipment. Whatever you do, I'd err on the side of caution. I used to have a copy of relevant legislation I believe, but am not sure what I did with it. My best advice is to at the very least put a notification on all venue doors that a fog machine will be used. Your source for handmade shadow puppets at Puppets in Melbourne

anothertechWed, 17 Feb 2010, 09:18 pm

"It may help to point out

"It may help to point out the OP is in Victoria, and laws may be different there (er, here)." Which would be why I started my posting with "You need to contact your state and local councils for any relevant legislation." as the OP headed his post with Australia Tech talk and gave no indication of what state they were in, but as this is an Australia wide site, I try to give information to suit everyone.

NaWed, 17 Feb 2010, 10:28 pm

Sorry for the confusion, I

Sorry for the confusion, I was making a general point to anyone who was intending to reply, not necessarily you. I noticed also that the OP didn't add in a location, which is why I took a moment to view their profile and find out; and added it to my comment because I knew it would be helpful information. Continue on... Your source for handmade shadow puppets at Puppets in Melbourne

JoeMcThu, 18 Feb 2010, 10:03 am

Good pionts!

This brings up some very good pionts & also highlights just how slack we are in comeatres venues.

I wonder how many ameatre venues actualy instigate any form of Fire Emergancy procedures or even carry out any drills?

Or as suggested by Don even know how to Isolate Fire Zones on thier Fire Arlarm Panels when smoke/fog machines are being used on stage?

I can't remember ever seeing any signage in comeatre venues, giving a step by step procedures of what to do in an Emedrgancy. Or even if the Stage or Front of House managers would know what to do or have had any training what so ever.

Although Fire indicator Panels [FIP] have isolation instructions on the inside of the door panel. These at times can also confuse the untrained & cause fralse alarms, especialy if there is a [DBA] Direct Brigade Alarm fitted, which most panels are these days. In turn this could also in a lot of States atract a fee/fine levied by the Fire Brigade in the case of false alarm call outs. I believe this charge can be quite hefty of around about $2000 per incident. Which with Schools & Public buildings it is cheaper & easier to place a ban on the use of fog/smoke machines, to try & aviod any of these fee/fine charges. Fees example;-http://www.mfb.vic.gov.au/Incidents/Managing-False-Alarms/False-Alarm-Charging/Current-charges-and-codes.html

With Ameatres this also falls into the duty of care of the venue management & techies to check that all isolations are returned to to the alarm stand by conditions after any isolation, which should also be part of an automatic check list prior to any performance or useage of the venue, along with ensuring the regular 'Fire Inspection Book', kept in the FIP is upto date & signed off!

I suppose this is a big stretch as I doubt there is even a First Aid Box acessable in a lot of venues either?

anothertechThu, 18 Feb 2010, 03:28 pm

Marloo have got their act

Marloo have got their act together on this one, they gave a safety to talk to the cast and crew of The Wiz and went through fire evacuation procedures, safety wardens etc. very well organised. Fire and first aid procedures should be an ITA on line resource for all clubs to share ?

LabrugThu, 18 Feb 2010, 03:33 pm

BRILLIANT

If someone gives me the guff, I'll compose and post something in the FAQs.

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

JoeMcFri, 19 Feb 2010, 09:06 am

May be Marloo &/or any

May be Marloo &/or any other group would like to share thier current procedures they have in place with the forum.

A lot of this is fairly basic & generic that can be adapted to the needs of each venue & I'm sure there is a heap of emergency manuals available on the net.

Walter PlingeThu, 25 Mar 2010, 08:22 am

I am a Lighting

I am a Lighting designer..... As long as your fog machine uses WATER BASED FLUID (which 99% do) then it will NOT set off smoke alarms, will NOT cause asthma attacks and does NOT require and sort of licence, certificate or qualification. =)

David AshtonThu, 25 Mar 2010, 08:20 pm

Absolute rubbish, a water

Absolute rubbish, a water based smoke will definately trigger smoke alarms, I have done it. If the light from the transmitter is reduced by the smoke, however produced it will trigger the receiver.

anothertechThu, 25 Mar 2010, 11:34 pm

Incorrect, Unsubstatiated Statement

Read this desription of how smoke detectors work, they can be triggered by smoke from a water based smoke machine, it depends on the concentration of the smoke http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-1003.pdf We all have different physioligies so it is possible, although extremely rare, to cause an athsma attack with heavy concentrations of smoke, you need to check material safety data sheets for all details http://www.fairlight.nl/Data/manual/Jem/ZR%20Mix.pdf That is why it is a wise precaution to advise patrons of the use of smoke machines in a production.

JoeMcFri, 26 Mar 2010, 10:45 am

I agree with David & Don

I agree with David & Don, sorry Jake!

Any airborne particles obscuration entering the detection chamber, will disrupt the sensor & cause an alarm state to be triggered. Wether this is with an Ionization, Photoelectric, beam or air aspirator type detector.

The alarm situation can also be caused by a dusty enviroment, which can be prevelent in theatre.

Fog of course normally hugs the deck to find the lowest piont, while smoke rises & this is the normal cause of an most alarms. Because the detectors are usually placed in the highest pionts of a venue.

In a lot of situations where smoke is prevelent for any cooking, such as in the 'Toast Effect', the 'smokey' can be easily changed out for a heat detector or even a 'toast proof' one.

The Australian Opera used to endorse a paticular brand of liquild for smoke machines years ago, but I think this was more of a commercial gimmick sonsorship for the AOC & mind over matter to reninsure the worbling luvvies. It still a heated liquid & causes smoke.

David AshtonFri, 26 Mar 2010, 05:25 pm

smoke

It doesn't cause smoke, smoke is particles of burnt material, it causes vapour, but smoke detectors can't tell the difference, at least the ones I have come across can't.

JoeMcSat, 27 Mar 2010, 08:40 am

Your right Don!I reverted

Your right Don!

I reverted to the use of the generic term for a 'SMOKE machine', possibly we could coin a new one or rename a more encompassing term to include 'haze' units as well?

;) ;-)

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