Lighting issues

Wed, 7 Oct 2009, 10:07 pm

jeffhansen19 posts in thread

I know there are a lot of different schools of thought when it comes to lighting design, and I guess if the end result works, then you've done the job. I am currently looking to upgrade the lighting at Melville, and looking for some input. Firstly, I have no training, and little knowledge about lighting design, bar what I've picked up on the job over the last few years. I want to set a permanent wash, but we are short on lanterns, so things tend to get moved around all the time. Question 1 - Are profiles the best lantern to use from the FOH bars? I've been led to believe this is the case, as you can pretty much eliminate any spill withh them. They do, tend to be rather hard around the edges, though I know this can be softened. I am currently using profiles for this purpose, but the don't have a wide enough beam to be used on the #1 FOH bar. Hence I use them on the #2 FOH bar, but it is too far from the stage, and hence too low (owing to a low ceiling), so they throw hard shadows onto the backdrop. To diminish this, I use floods on the backdrop to try and wash out the shadows. This is successful to a point. I think what I need are wider beam profiles that can be used closer to the stage. Comments?? Question 2 - Assuming I've solved the above problem, I have a handful of fresnels that I can use on the bar behind the curtains to light the upstage area, and backdrop to create a workable wash. Would Parcans as a cheap option do this job? Do they work in a wash? I've got 4 Minims that I use as backlighting, which seems to work OK, but they have a rather narrow beam. I think that wide angle Parcans might do a better job here. I think most of the problem is that the lighting bars are too low, though there's nothing that can be done about that, and this means that I need to have wide angle lamps, which I really don't have.

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jeffhansenWed, 7 Oct 2009, 10:07 pm

NaWed, 7 Oct 2009, 10:25 pm

From what I learned at uni

From what I learned at uni (two years lighting design/op), FOH is best done with fresnels, except for ranges too distant (in which case, yes you'd use profiles). General wash from sides or back would be parcans; stage lighting for tighter areas would be fresnels. Profiles generally were used only for particular things (ie. tight hard spots, gobos, etc), although we did use some on the FOH bars, but only when we'd run out of fresnels. (This is based on memory from 6 years ago, but it should be right. I was one of only two people in the class who were actually good at lighting :)) I'm not sure if that answers your question regarding wider beam profiles, but perhaps trying with fresnels might help? ... I believe this also covers the other questions to some degree. Using parcans would get you a wider range of wash compared to fresnels and profiles, freeing you up to use those for other things. But someone who has more experience than I might be able to provide more/better suggestions. Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

cernunnonThu, 8 Oct 2009, 12:27 am

Lighting

Fresnels for the wash. If you want to limit spill, use shutters or barn doors. Parcans are rubbish for a wash, but I have used them for adding colour, particularly as back or side light, almost never from the front. Unless you have to, leave the pars for rock & roll. As Na pointed out, profiles are for lighting key areas, and should change from one show to the next. You shouldn't need to include them in your wash. Importantly it is difficult to maintain consistent intensity of light across a stage with several profiles, so you end up with patches of shadow. As you're just down the road, shoot me an email if you like, I'd be happy to come and have a look at what you've got to work with.

JoeMcThu, 8 Oct 2009, 10:37 am

I agree with Na 'n

I agree with Na 'n Cernunon & the use profiles as 'Specials' & Key lighting.

This may help Jeff & is something I have advocated for a long time in 'Square one rigs'. Is Border Battens ['X' ray (flood)lighting], which can give upto a four colour wash & augment FOH ['Y' position] fresnel wash. Leaving the stock of individual lanterns to be moved about, as required.

Strand Archive - "S" Batten There is a lot of the old Strand Sunray battens knocking around & being a sparky, I'm sure you could either make up your own or modify some industrial/commercial lighting cheaply, from salvage yards or where ever.

I made a few 4 & 8 compartment units years ago, from roof guttering & fitting Par 38 bubbles, but that is another story.

With border battens they can remain rigged & you have always got a colour wash, saves a lot of time on bump in. Also the units can be used for Side, back, cyc & floats {footlights ( 'Z'[deck position]}.

I'd certainly take up Cernunons kind offer, it's a pity I'm on the other side of the creek at Insigitoon [Embleton] these days.

What might help you with the foh bar profiles is to cross focas them, this will help & feather the beams out using fresnels on the cross overs.

HutchieThu, 8 Oct 2009, 01:31 pm

My 2 cents...

To the question of FOH: Profiles would be far better choice over fresnels. But in your case where FOH#1 is too close, perhaps try crossing the profiles to the opposite side of the stage to achieve a wider coverage, but be careful to not cross too much or you'll be hitting to stage at too sharp an angle. Try not to go more than say 45 degrees off centre. To the question of Stage: Fresnels are ideal for a stage cross-wash, even better if you have barn doors. You could also use parcans, but with these you have no ability to adjust the beam size. Parcans are ideal for backlight where spill isn't soo much of a problem. NB: If the lamps haven't be cleaned in a while then give the lenses a clean and you might be surprised how much more intensity you get. Hutchie.

LogosThu, 8 Oct 2009, 03:01 pm

If you've got Profiles I

If you've got Profiles I would use them out on your most distant FOH in pastel shades as what I would call face light while relying on fresnels as your stage washes from your closer bar for colour. I also would use things like S battens for back light washes in preference to PAR cans. I hate PAR Cans in theatre lighting except for key light because even with 64's unless you've got dozens of the damn things it's impossible to get even washes. Having said that I actually use PAR 16's and 20's (birdies) quite a lot for specials. The 45 degree rule is a good one but in our smaller theatres it can be hard to use the 45deg fan because it can be a nightmare to try and light each are of the stage with the requisite 3 lanterns and the 60deg angle from the ceiling can be unachievable. After that use your profiles for effects lanterns. As far as I am concerned however whatever lights the stage so you can see the action is right. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

David AshtonThu, 8 Oct 2009, 05:44 pm

myth time

There is no question that profiles are best for front of house, BUT you need wide angle units and they are expensive. The percieved problem with par cans is that most people get long nose cans and these restrict the angle that can be got.If you use stubby cans and wide angle lamps you can achieve reasonable cover but gel burnout becomes an issue as the lamp is close to the gel.Floods are under used but very handy for low roof venues.You can get barn doors for parcans although I seldom see them used.

stephendeanTue, 13 Oct 2009, 08:24 pm

Profiles are best for FOH,

Profiles are best for FOH, you can control the spill so much better. Fresnels do spill and they are not totally controled by barndoors. Keep your fresnels for on stage washes, where spill is not such a problem. If you require more info don't hesitate to contact me.For more info about this read books by Francis Reid or Richard Pilbrow. I also have a blog that talks about these issues.

JoeMcMon, 19 Oct 2009, 10:34 am

Francis Reid was 'n still

Francis Reid was 'n still is the Guru who influnanced me, when I spoke to him back in abou 1958 or 9, at the Golders Green Hyppodrome in London. I think at the time he was actualy the editor of the 'TABS' magazine. He aparently he is still going strong & runs his own theatre some where in english home Counties?

He also from memory liked utalising the old footlights [floats] to augment the misenscene from the 'Z' position. Also he was not adversed to using floods even from the FOH Beem Bar, as well as side & back lighting.

I have used Sunray S battens hung on the FOH beem bar from time to time, especialy as David mentioned in low ceiling venues, to great effect to cover from 'Y' [face light (logos)] position.

Also I can't remember if MTC has foh bars in the Perch positions, which are good for cross focus lighting with profiles.

jeffhansenMon, 19 Oct 2009, 12:26 pm

Thanks for all your

Thanks for all your input. Joe, I don't know what "Perch" position is, other wise I'd answer the question. Reading your responses, and considering the limitations of our venue, I think the correct solution would be to get some more fresnels, and maybe a few parcans. www.meltheco.org.au

JoeMcTue, 20 Oct 2009, 10:25 am

'Perches' are generaly

'Perches' are generaly vertical bars attached to the venue walls, inline with the FOH lightging bars, that give an extreme OP (left) & PS (right) focus angle to the stage & proscenium. Rather than just a front on one from the normal ['Y'] FOH LX bars. {gawd I hate using the 'LX' designation, the same with all the those others like 'FX' or 'SX' These lighting references always give me images of scifi flicks & junior space cadets (I'm well 'n truely past it when comes to "SX' anyway!)}. I also refer to lighting Bars as being fixed in place, as in FOH - While lighting Battens on the stage normaly Fly & are moveable in/out.

I'm with Tony when it comes to parcans, while they are cheap & to me serve the purpose for which they came about. Rock 'n roll, disco & head banger noyz boyz Srving the ned to whip it in, out & whipe it! (the latter rarely happens of course] For theateatre they are a right pain to use! Except possibly for dance to highlight ankles, thighs & upper half or the 3 T's! [Toes, Thighs & Touche]

As Tony posted the use of Birdies [One under Par] work well along with the smaller par 16 & 20's which came in various focal beems. Also I have used the cheap domesic/comercial track display light fixtures to great effect, which I name as 'Bugies', that are similar to the MR16's with barn doors.

In my previous spakie life working for a lighting wholesaler, I managed to do a deal for the theatre on a heap of shop sioled, damaged & warranty return light fixtures & fittings. Which were growing dust in a pile at the back of the wharehouse. The Company was glad to get rid of them, as the pile was taking up valuable floor space. Of course I had to pay for them by trading off my time in lue & a few comps. While a lot of them were cream cracked, nearly all were easily fixed or caniblised for parts to fix up ithers. A lot were used at the Old Mill during the renovations & also utalised on stage.

These days especialy with warranty returns, it is cheaper for the manufacturers to just supply a new electrical stock item to the distibutor, rather than paying for them to be returned &/or fixed. So to save the distibutors dumping or storing them, it behoves us incomeatre to perform a recycling service & take them off thier hands - it's surprising what's out there in the world of skip diving that can be utalised for ameatre!

Exhibition lighting and specialized lighting for Trade fairs and ...

The same with old gell that's chucked out in proeatre venues, nearly all is reuseable in ameatre, as most is only leached or blown out at the centre, still leaving good gel that can be cut to fit smaller laterns.

jeffhansenTue, 20 Oct 2009, 01:13 pm

In that case, yes, I have

In that case, yes, I have installed a Perch SL, FOH #2 bar, but someone threw the galv pipe out during a busy bee before I could make one for SR. Grrrrrr! www.meltheco.org.au

JoeMcTue, 20 Oct 2009, 05:27 pm

Could you get some donated by the MCC

Could you get some donated by the Melville Council Works depot? I'm sure there would be some scaf pipe & fittings knocking around on a building site.

Or have a chat to David from 'ATT' he installed the FOH Bars & droppers at Phoenix for us.

Peter ProbertSun, 8 Nov 2009, 05:25 am

Fresnelss for near FOH; profiles for far FOH........

I tried a bar of Patt 23's across a FOH bar just above the apron but didn’t think it would work given their distinct profile; the beam angle was too narrow and hard edges was the problem. I then used a bank of Minim fresnels which worked well, they are not hard edged and actors walking across the apron are consistently lit without dark hollows. If you get over spray then use barn doors â€“ I didn’t need them. The further away you go from the stage the profile then comes into its own with controllable beam and you will need more punch given the loss of light over distance. Profiles can be softened and have better control over edges. The best way here is to try it out……………… I agree with other writers PAR's are only for colour washing, disco effects, etc and completely uncontrollable light target wise ......... Cheers - Peter

jeffhansenSun, 8 Nov 2009, 05:23 pm

I agree Peter - The best

I agree Peter - The best way is to try out. My problem has been that I don't have the range of lanterns to try. I have recently dragged a friend of mine, who happens to be a professional lighting designer, to the theatre to look at our rig. We have decided that fresnels are best for our rig for an even wash. If I purchase 8 new fresnels (he recommends Selecon 650W) I can 'set and forget' the wash, as I will have enough spare lanterns for specials. www.meltheco.org.au

David AshtonSun, 8 Nov 2009, 09:55 pm

A couple of misconceptions

A couple of misconceptions here, you could have put extra lenses in your 23's and made them 23w's, you can get 90 degree profiles, at a price, so the assumption that fresnels are wider than profiles is wrong.You could put your profiles out of focus and peak the beam to blend them.There is a compelling reason to use pars,they are much more efficient than theatre lights, so you get more light and longer life, an important factor in limited power situations, and with the correct fitting and with the correct choice of wide, medium, narrow or very narrow globe coupled with barndoors fitted to your parcans they can be a very economical option, especially with a light frost to smooth out striation.

Peter ProbertMon, 9 Nov 2009, 03:58 am

Patt 23 W's

I agree with the added lense, the angle and the out-of-focus ...... It's all trial and error but with some nouse............... Peter

JoeMcMon, 16 Nov 2009, 10:56 am

"Set 'n forget" colour wash

"Set 'n forget" colour wash is a barrow I wheel out & push all the time. As suggested by Jeffs mate & others here. Then to just suppliment with the use of 'specials' as required. This generaly happens in proeatre venues & makes life easier with back to back shows & fast bump in/out schedules.

Lets face it most ameatres actualy do this without thinking, in as much as, they work around what lamps are already hanging where ever & hope for the best. Inevertably after a few seasons the rig becomes like a patch work quilt. Because we are too slack to even change gels or return the rig back to 'Square One'. The wishfull thinking & hope is probably one of "don't worry it return to square one someday?". [Most are still waiting for this to happen!}

This also ties up & brings it back, sort of, to the general topic of on going maintences, cleaning, safety checks, tagging & all the other normal housekeeping tasks.

Yet cobwebs 'n dust buiild up are still growing wildly at most comeatre venues, which probably proves the lamps have not been touched for years & still achieving an out of focus blatt lighting misenscene.

Which means there is usauly only two chances of well maintained air con units & equipment - 'none & buckleys'!

LogosMon, 16 Nov 2009, 11:41 am

Yeah

Gaafa: I go to the smaller theatres where I often find profiles that haven't been bench focused or trimmed for years which means that the light is not what it could be. The new test and tag techniques mean that much of this testing is done by people with the plug and play machines who simply check the light in situ and then plug it back in. The light is not cleaned or maintained in any way. Time should be taken once a year at least to clean and check lights. If you hire or loan lights as I do I test them each time before they leave my workshop. Once a year January usually every lantern I own is stripped and cleaned and necessary repairs and part replacements done. I'm a great believer in standard rigs with colour washes that don't get moved too often but I like the rig to be split up the middle so I can do left/right division. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

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