bloody architects
Tue, 2 Sept 2008, 09:08 pmDavid Ashton22 posts in thread
bloody architects
Tue, 2 Sept 2008, 09:08 pmI had a call-out today to a new school theatre, less than a year old.The house lighting system is too complex for the staff to work and no manual.
The step lights have been glued in, some are already dead.
There are electric winches on all 6 bars.
There is no ladder, one is supposed to focus lights by raising and lowering bars till you get them all right.
Having spent all this money on bells and whistles they could only afford 20 parcans 6 fresnels and 4 cyc lights and the parcans are open backed single insulated- for kids?
No profiles.
So a million dollars on [my guess] we have a non functional teaching venue.
This is a state school paid for by tax-payers.
How do they get away with it?
David AshtonTue, 2 Sept 2008, 09:08 pm
I had a call-out today to a new school theatre, less than a year old.The house lighting system is too complex for the staff to work and no manual.
The step lights have been glued in, some are already dead.
There are electric winches on all 6 bars.
There is no ladder, one is supposed to focus lights by raising and lowering bars till you get them all right.
Having spent all this money on bells and whistles they could only afford 20 parcans 6 fresnels and 4 cyc lights and the parcans are open backed single insulated- for kids?
No profiles.
So a million dollars on [my guess] we have a non functional teaching venue.
This is a state school paid for by tax-payers.
How do they get away with it?
Jim CTue, 2 Sept 2008, 10:23 pm
re BLOODY ARCHITECTS
How did this post slip through my sights?
I could'nt agree more! Having spent the last 45 years of my working life in the building industry trying to interpret the stupid ideas (of a minority)of architects.
Some times they need to "get real" and obtain a little more life experience in the field of construction they are designing for.
Some architects are more concerned more with putting together a portfolio of impressive looking photos of their ideas than designing practical projects.
I recall one community theatre refurbishment,(Which i will protect by not naming) Where the council appointed architect was given a very comprehensive brief from the experienced committee on the needs of an effective stage and greenroom.
the result an absolute disaster. After all he was the professional, and what did we know. A stage with no wing or back stage, one doorway opening directly into the greenroom, "sssh they can hear you, voices carry to the audience", and no access from the stage to front of house without running around the outside of the building.
I some times think aloud with a synical mind, is it because architects base their fee on a percentage of the total cost of the commission? and therefore pre-select the more expensive matererial and methods of construction?
Well at least we have a home to perform in, ant the council do listen and help fix some of the problems. The second toilet for a cast and crew of 40+ was much apreciated, but how do we climb over the props to make an entry?
NaWed, 3 Sept 2008, 01:19 am
I worked in the BMW Edge
I worked in the BMW Edge back when it was new (2003 or so) and practically nobody was using it as a theatre space. To access most of the FOH rig, you have to winch it down over the raked seating, which is all wooden and immovable (and placed on odd angles with the stage). Of course, when it came time to focusing, you had to harness yourself, go up two flights of the building into the 'ceiling' (there's weird aesthetic canvases - think of carports - hung underneath the ceiling, so you actually don't see what's above, which is a lot of catwalks and additional rigging space), climb onto the catwalk, attach the harness, and then down onto the winched bars. Scary, even for the trained pros. Oh yes, and because they were moving about on the bars, they tended to sway a little.
It was either that, or try and figure out how to use the cherrypicker over those wooden seats.
Luckily, onstage rigging was less chaotic, although the trickiest part was maneuvering the cherrypicker into the hall, since it barely fit through the single door that wasn't set against stairs.
Let's face it: architects don't ever do theatre, as they seem to have no idea to construct a useful space. (Perhaps that's why multi-purpose venues are popular)
... Oh, and there is no 'backstage' area as such, unless you count outside the actual venue (BMW Edge is set on the Yarra - so you're looking at it as an audience member... don't get me started on doing daytime performances with lighting in a half-glass venue - but leads either to the street or the rest of Fed Square)
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The Lighting PrinceWed, 3 Sept 2008, 09:01 am
I agree, early this year i
I agree, early this year i was working in a different college's venue, it was less than a year old, being the young scamp i am i was excited to be working in a brand spanking new theatre....little did i know the trouble that would ensue.
The tiered seating that packed away like those at a sports venue sat infront of the entrance to the venue, there was no wing space or backstage area, meaning actors had to sneak accross stage to get to OP entrances. The lighting system was like a labyrinth inwhich there were areas unsafe to hang lamps(20cm above audience members heads!!!) and to top it off the com system that was inplace were telephones which were situated in the bio box, OP stage(in plain site) and in the dessing rooms and all 3 rang when u had to make a call. As with David's case the school spent all this money to update their venue and had little to none for anything else. It's a shame.
NaWed, 3 Sept 2008, 07:20 pm
Perhaps it's not so much
Perhaps it's not so much the fault of the architects but the people who hire them: since when do school boards know anything about functional theatre spaces?
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Robert WhyteThu, 4 Sept 2008, 03:11 am
Like the old slaying goes,
Like the old saying goes, a camel is a horse designed by a committee.
JoeMcThu, 4 Sept 2008, 12:03 pm
Wor war Stories!
I generally dogorise them into 3 types & put them into there individual ashtrays. That being Artytechs, Achiteks & Architects. Having attempted to work with a lot of the first two, I have only ever once worked with the latter, who was prepared to hear the light & visualise the sound.
Architeks are predominately interested in producing an Oedipus, corresponding to the size of their fee.
While the Artytecs are the type I'm sure, most of us have came across with theatre/venues. Who are passionate in creating an esthetically intricate structure, to only reflect their own Oedipus Complexities. Noticeable by the brown stain around their mouths, from being audible only via the R Send.
The only Architect I have met is Gary Lawrence, who refurbished the Old Mill theatre, as part of the south Perth Precinct. Mainly because of his empirical theatre experience, thus willing to roll up his sleeves, listen while buffing up the Crown & in resetting it's Jewels.
[I have yet to go thru his Charon tunnel that he, his sons & volunteers. Excavated as a passage from PS to OP under the stage.]
It never fails to amase me why these bods, realising there is a large open void above the stage area, that it is an ideal place to conceal & house Air-con plant. Maybe the fault is with Inigo Jones or he had had some insight, when he built the first Phoenix theatre, from the ashes of the Cockpit site. By introducing the Proscenium Arch, to accommodate any future comfort equipment developments?
JoeMcThu, 4 Sept 2008, 12:37 pm
Camelus dromedarius
Who are never sure on giving it just one hump or two?
Jim CThu, 4 Sept 2008, 05:14 pm
refurbished Old mill
GAFFA,I Agree with your views on the Old Mill Refurbishment. it is difficult to work with a heritage building, many restrictions on what you can and can't do. But here we have a theatre that feels like a theatre. The tunnel is a master stroke in logistics, but during the performance of "South Pacific" while the works were being carried out, there were quite a few bruised heads as the tunnel was not quite deep enough. emerging from the tunnel through the fireplace was a piece of theatre in itself.
Another mighty theatre refurbishment,abet a few years back, was "the Maj" but now we are talking big money.
mtearleMon, 8 Sept 2008, 05:35 pm
On consultants, etc...
It's more likely to be the electrical consultant who has made a dog's breakfast of it ... the architect and project manager may be blissfully unaware.
Lets walk through your post:
> I had a call-out today to a new school theatre, less than a year old.
Less than a year old, the building is still likely to be in the contractual defects period with the builder. Get the principal on the phone to architect/builder/project manager.
> The house lighting system is too complex for the staff to work and no manual.
Electrical or AV consultant - get them out to the site. They signed off on the kit - if it's unfit for purpose the school should tell them quickly.
> The step lights have been glued in, some are already dead.
The consultants specification should have reference Australian Standard 1680.4 Interior Lighting - Maintenance of Electric Lighting Systems. Section 6.2 is what you are after ... "Provision should be made ... for relamping ..."
Get the consultant and builder out to site and show them how the fitting is unacceptable.
> There are electric winches on all 6 bars.
> There is no ladder, one is supposed to focus lights by raising and lowering bars till you get them all right.
Ask the architect who designed the system and again get track down the person responsible. It will have almost certainly been farmed out to a specialist consultant to design.
> Having spent all this money on bells and whistles they could only afford 20 parcans 6 fresnels and 4 cyc lights and the parcans are open backed single insulated- for kids?
> No profiles.
This one is a bit tougher ... awkward questions like who generated the consultants brief are needed here.
> So a million dollars on [my guess] we have a non functional teaching venue.
> This is a state school paid for by tax-payers.
> How do they get away with it?
Pure and simple lack of professional expertise at several levels.
Mark
--
Tech & Server Wrangler
David AshtonSat, 13 Sept 2008, 10:53 am
The principal and teachers
The principal and teachers know it doesn't work but are not being taken notice of by the architects, now I have thrown a spanner in the works by reporting all these matters I'm not popular, by the way the complex house light controller is back-stage.
This week a new school venue under construction- the control room is behind the stage, this is not a misprint, the control room is behind the stage but this is no problem as they can put in a camera and monitor speakers, fortunately this project has a school business manager who is competent so a control room will be built FOH by intruding into the foyer.
This idea of control room behind the stage is very common in schools as you can combine dressing rooms and control room, saves lots of money.
In the System of power in the schools the teachers have zero power to control what is built for them, even principals have little control and have to believe the bulldust explanations given by the architects.
By the way the building has yet to be handed over so it will be interesting to see if anything is done.
jeffhansenSat, 13 Sept 2008, 01:11 pm
That is ridiculous. How can
That is ridiculous. How can you possibly provide a decent audio mix through monitor speakers?
www.meltheco.org.au
TaureanSun, 14 Sept 2008, 01:25 pm
Smoke and Mirrors
As far as the Arty-teks are concerned Jeff, it is "Theatre". The quality of the Audio reproduction and the productions in general have no relevance to the equipment.... it's all part of the magic!
We have nothing, do nothing and perform miracles with what we have got....which, if not sub standard, is of course.....nothing!
Come on mate!...You knew that already.
(Yes, I am being sarcastic)
"Be nice to your Tech's - or they'll turn out the lights and go home!"
NaSun, 14 Sept 2008, 02:43 pm
"We have nothing, do
"We have nothing, do nothing and perform miracles with what we have got"
I think that's the best truism. I've seen amazing shows done with practically nothing. Anybody who's ever worked Melb Fringe Festival knows exactly what I mean (or for that matter, any other festival or in any venue... etc etc)
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JoeMcSun, 14 Sept 2008, 03:38 pm
"WE WHO HAVE NOTHING!"
Taureen that would make for a great techie theme song!
Maybe some one like 'Bass boy' could add the music & possibly the words. It could be on a par with 'The Anthem of the Ancient Britons' - but of course not to the tune of the 'Men of Harlec'. which would have Hywell breaking out into song & delivering his 'LL' [thllhan] singy type accent!
we who have nowt after the refurbishment of the Phoenix theatre venue, is rather apt!
But we will mount the 'Big Idea' production in October, no matter what!
However access to the venue is wrapped up in red tape & we have yet to get a key to it.
I see the Archytec has evaporated with his pot of gold bricks, thank gawd!
I can guess we will get in the joint for opening night?
Then attempt to bump in lighting on the one & only winch up FOH bar!
I suppose we could supply torches to the punters or do the show with house lights.
On a bare stage with no where to suspend soft hangings, because the stage has a ceiling, that we are not allowed to touch. Good job we made up a few of our own flats a while ago, at least we can have some Legs on the Sward.
LogosSun, 14 Sept 2008, 10:17 pm
HMMM
We the unknown have done so much with so little for so long that now we can do absolutely anything with nothing and make it look great.
Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au
JoeMcSat, 27 Sept 2008, 08:59 am
Phoenix gets the cue 'GO'!
We have finaly got the key & swipe card, for our new venue!
So with the 'blue Peter' broke out atop, it is all hands to effect the Bump/in, for "Big Idea' production at the newly refurbished 'Phoenix' Theatre.
But as usual & quite normal - we are close hauled against the wind 'n LUFFing [Irons], with less than a week to get the venue up & running.
The Council have finally got the clearance from their H&S department, to use the venue. Mind you the new raked retractable seating, won't be available until December & beyond a winch up FOH lighting bar - there is not much else available as a workable theatre.
So we will start from scratch again rigging it out, with lighting & audio equipment. fitting up flats for Legs & installing patch circuit battens. But apparently the new kitchen equipment works & the electric power is switched on.
So from lunch time today we will be bringing in our gear to strike a blow! Hopefully the the electronic swipe card & the keys don't set off the alarm system won't go off, when the automatic doors are operated.
We believe the project Electricians will still be working there today, sorting out some of the problems?
We know the in the Art gallery almost ever thing works, which is a round building stuck on the side of the Memorial Hall Lego Land project! But the rest is in the doubtful basket!
Being an ameatre mob we will be ready for the dress rehearsal on Sunday 5th October - which year is still debatable?
So if anyone would like to lend a hand or two, we would be grateful. I can can only guarantee the odd cuppa & the cooking facilities work? We will be there at the corner of Rockingham Road & Carrington Street Hamilton Hill from lunch time every day, for the whole of time leading up to the show. So if you have nothing better to do?
Contact us the numbers are 'Me' - 94342365 {mobile 0466 411 835 [I only just got it & have yet to work out how to switch it on?]}.
listerofsmegSun, 28 Sept 2008, 08:50 am
School Therters...
Unless the school has a least 1 teacher and one expersinced student at the collage, the therter will allways be rubbish.
At all schools, there is a driveing force from the drama deptment to have a therter on site, but unless there are students and techers that has the skills or willing to learn the skills the therter will crash and burn. The techs who are going to be running the therter or venue need to be involved from the start.
One school in our area has a lot of really nice equitment. However, they don't use it. However, the collage i attend has hardly any money for the PAC (our pac is really a covereted gym, with seating on the floor and a stage with no wings & carpet) but with what we got, me and my mate make do and create great looking shows from a tech stand side.
Thats my little rant for today :)
-Pete
www.peteramesbury.com
JoeMcSun, 28 Sept 2008, 02:39 pm
Never hang up that
Never hang up that attitude, even if you do - don't forget where you left it listerofsmeg!
as taureen posted 'we who have nothing'.
'Gymeatres' & 'Theatoriums' [coined by Hywell] seems to be what educators & arcytechs have been allowed to germinate in their collective ideas of an ideal performing spaces - we are going thru this drama at present, to the verge of my final & sixth stoke yesterday. I need to have a pressurestat fitted in my ear & wear a hard hat with a flashing red strobe on top!
With less than 6 days we need to turn the empty hall, into a theatre venue of sorts?
It will happen as it always does, though it May not be what we were assured to expect or I had envisioned for the 'BIG IDEA' production, but it will happen. Even with the words of my son ringing in my ears, "And at the next stroke, it will be ___________.
JoeMcMon, 29 Sept 2008, 07:18 pm
HOENIX @ The Naked Chook Pen!
On Sunday members of the group went into the venue, to find the windows had been smashed, overnight by some helpful soul. The glazier boarded them up, which in one respect saves us from covering the windows during the show.
But we are not fortunate, as he will be back on Tuesday to replace the glass. Maybe he could put tinted glass back? That won't happen, because it would spoil the esthetic's, according to the Archytech. When we previously suggested installing automatic shutters or even the old wooden ones, in keeping with the heritage style & security.
However as we are restricted in making any holes or attaching anything to the interior, we will have to come up with some way of reducing the outside light at night & sunlight for a matinée?
Thank gawd Hywell [Old mill] is going to be on hand again, to help me out.
After I nearly fell off the perch the other day, I had a word with David Ashton, about the situation & he came up with a great question? [which I hadn't thought about] How an Archytech can take a usable space & turn it into an unworkable venue.
Although the initial budget was about $1.2 Million I believe, for the refurbishment. It has ended up costing allegedly $4 Million & still ain't finished! ! So has the $50000 equipment budget, not actually been lost, as much as appropriated into the massive over run? Well as the amount is only petty cash & insignificant. In order to satisfy the exterior achievement or a lasting artytectural signature. - The community users are an unimportant factor!
In the mean time again it is left to those who with nothing, to turn it into a semblances of a workable performing art space again. Only costing hopefully a round of applause, to get the powers that be - off the hook! By turning a pigs R Send into a silk purse.
Inevitably it will be a white elephant, as the new Liberal Government, will possibly reinstate the 'Roe' freeway extension, which is designated to go thru just behind the building. Which will be something to look forward too, as they finally got rid of the bus terminus, at the side of the hall. Now we could have a freeway running thru the carpark?
JoeMcThu, 2 Oct 2008, 12:40 pm
"CHOOK PEN - SAGA