director lighting tech. dispute. Protocol?

As a new director in this industry, I am unsure of the protocol when it comes to directing of the lighting. I thought the director had the final say on all things concerning presentation of the show.At the moment we are halfway through our production,which is being very well received by the way,but there is a dispute in the lighting. The lighting tech. insists on blacking out the stage at the end of the final scene before the final curtain, but I want the lights left up as the curtain closes.The lighting tech insists that you do not close curtains with full lights up, ever.But I have been in many shows where the lights have been left up as the curtain closes. What is the correct procedure? and shouldnt the director get the final say? Wayne.

I have worked in similar situations, both as a lighting designer and director. In my opinion: director has final say unless the lighting state/design is potentially dangerous (the opposite of your situation for instance; I don't like having black outs in a dark room, especially if the cast has difficulty finding backstage), or there is a better/nicer way of doing something and the director agrees with the suggestion. Lighting designers and operators should have a say, but should be prepared and willing to be outvoted; and as with any designers, should really only fight when/if the cause merits it. I'm not saying they should be pushovers, rather they shouldn't fight over things that ultimately are trivial. I have fought and won a few fights as a lighting designer, but only when I thought it would greatly affect the ability of the actors to work safely on stage. In this situation, I DON'T agree with the lx designer. Who cares that the curtains will close on a fully lit stage? Is it really going to damage the show or the way the audience will react to it? Will the audience really walk out of the performance saying, "You know, it was a great show, but I really didn't like that last lighting state"? No... my best advice from my lighting lecturer was that the lighting is good when nobody notices it. In this situation, having lights fully up as the curtains close does not pose a safety problem, and would (IMHO) not affect the way the audience would react or the overall acceptance of the production. What you should do - sit down and have a calm discussion with your lx designer. Find out why they are fighting so much on this point. If it is simply because it's "just not cricket", then you have a legitimate claim to push back, put your foot down, and do it the way you want. If they have a more legitimate reason, other than to challenge artistic vision (ie. safety, whatever), then consider it more deeply. Most of all, treat your lx designer with respect, and no matter what they say to you, explain that you have listened to their experienced and considered opinion, but respectfully disagree and prefer to do it the way originally suggested. Sticky Apple Legs www.freewebs.com/stickyapplelegs Puppets in Melbourne www.thepromptcopy.com/pip My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

I've been in this situation exactly but as the LD and the compromise I reached with the Director was to BO all front of house lighting as the curtain closed leaving the stage lit but not splashing on the Main curtain. I hate seeing main curtains lit by FOH washes rather than warmers. It's ugly. As for the wider general argument. I think we have had this discussion before somewhere. As a director do you want to light the show yourself or do you want a lightng designer who is a creative part of the team. Yes a director can say "I would like the actor in a special here at this moment and the rest of the lights dimmed" and that is legitimate cooperation like telling a set designer where the doors need to be, but remember presumably you're lighting designer knows a lot more about waht he can do with the gear he has got and should be allowed to be creative provided that the end result does not clash with your artistic intent. I don't like attempting to work with directors who want to tell me how to light a show. That;s why I'm there. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Yes - totally agree with everything Tony said. Sticky Apple Legs www.freewebs.com/stickyapplelegs Puppets in Melbourne www.thepromptcopy.com/pip My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

Are we talking amateur theatre or professional theatre, although I suspect this is amateur theatre, where everyone seems to do their own thing, not from lack of enthusiasm, more from lack of training, although it sounds like the lighting tech has the right idea. It is because we do not like the audience to notice curtains and tabs flying in and out, we plot lighting cues to take the lighting off the offending curtain. This is because what is a good lighting design for a stage where the area to be lit is basically a horizontal surface, the beams of light are going to look really bad on a vertical surface such as the main house rag. On a large stage with fly's, it is normal practice to plot lx cues to take the light of any tab before it is flown out and then reestablish the previous lx state after the tab has finished flying. Normally a blackout is used, as the sequence is end of show, blackout, actors step back, rag flies in, possibly a curtain warmer if too long a set up time behind the rag, rag flies up and lights come up for curtain call. Then lights go down, usually blackout as rag flies in, if no bounce then curtain warmers and house lights. If you are milking the audience for a curtain call, then a blackout is preferred as they audience will wait to see what is going to happen. If you bring up an lx state to fly the rag in, they may think it is the curtain warmers and it is time to go home. Behing the rag, workers will exist so cast can move about, if necessary you can add some extra light if the casts eyes are not adjusted to the low levels of the work lights. If the director does not want a blackout at the end of the show, but wants the rag to fly in, then you need to plot a suitable state for the rag to fly in without it looking untidy. Of course all of these details are covered in your production meetings, well beforehand, aren't they ????????

We only had the one tech run b4 the show began, and I asked the lighting tech then to leave the lights up when the final curtain closes. Black out,then relight when actors are taking their bows.Working lights are put on for cast to move safely while curtain is closed. My reason for this? We have blackouts only,for scene/set changes, and I wanted to have something different at the end of the show, so the audience isnt sitting there wondering if it is just another set change.Which is what is happening, no applause, just wondering if show is finished,and we do this for the applause,dont we? The answers Im receiving so far are fairly biased. As I said at the beginning of this forum topic, this is my first show solo directing, is it normal for there to be such anamosity between directors and techs?

The word protocol is not one I normally come across in theatre. Procedures and conventions as in conventional or normal, do exist. Animosity does not normally exist because everyone usually knows what they are doing, and know what the other person is doing. Communications is very important as bump in and rehearsal times are short because venues cost money when they are dark. It is no use having a short temper as the job still needs to get done after you have finished yelling, so it is easier to just keep working smoothly through it. In your production meetings, which may be just a phonecall or an email, if you all know the venue, you need to know what is required, then plan it beforehand so you can have all of the equipment set up. Time in the venue is restricted and stage time is normally taken up by reblocking and scene change rehearsals. You normally only get 1 tech rehearsal unless you are very rich but you will find the crew will not need more than one unless it is a very complex show. The tech rehearsal is a TECH rehearsal when you do stop start at every point in the show where something happens. This is where you find out what doesn't work in scene changes, what mic levels need to be set, which mic gets allocated to who, foldback levels are set etc. It is very demanding on actors as they do not have continuity in dialogue, but it is important for all of the leads to know where they are going on stage and get to know the venue, time from dressing room to stage etc. Lighting is usually plotted before the tech so you see the actual lighting states and find out what angles are wrong and also to see what blocking has been changed. Rehearsals are for the actors and should flow around minor flaws to check running times, backstage positions etc. The preview show is a good compromise as it sells tickets, allows another full run through and the audience knows there may be one or two technical problems. If this is a professional show, the tech should do as instructed as that is what he is paid to do. He will offer advice on what looks best but the call is up to you as director. Try and get rid of blackouts for scene changes. The easiest way to do a scene change is have a scene on the opposite side of the stage to the scene change and light that area only or do it in front of the rag. There are a lot of lighting anlges avaialble and the steeper the better to isolate the lit area of stage so you do not light up the scene change. Or light up the scene change so the audience can see what is going on, but use breakups ansd backlight so you do not see the faces of the backstage crew clearly and have them in blacks. Does that help ? You have not said if this is amateur, if so, you are working with volunteers so not all groups will have high standards.

"is it normal for there to be such anamosity between directors and techs?" Yes and no. It depends on the dynamics. I've had directors who have been infuriating to work with and we didn't get on at all. Other directors I got on with very well, and never disagreed. It's normal, yes, but only because eventually you're going to come across someone who either doesn't agree with you, or doesn't get along with you, or both. Additionally, I agree with the comments made that this should have been sorted out earlier. Like in tech run or in production meetings - that's what they're there for. If you or your lx designer are debating one lighting state later than that (ie. dress rehearsals), than either or both of you have miscommunicated somewhere along the lines. Sticky Apple Legs www.freewebs.com/stickyapplelegs Puppets in Melbourne www.thepromptcopy.com/pip My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

Hi: I'm sorry if you felt my comment was biased, I am a Producer Director who also happens to be a professional lighting tech so I thought I was covering both sides of the argument. Generally speaking, Yes, a director should have the final say in relation to all artistic decisions on a show. In your position you seem to have reached a rock and a hard place situation over the issue of that final BO. You need to sit down and discuss it. Is there a senior member of the group who you can approach as an arbiter to help resolve the problem. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Thankyou for your comments.I appreciate the input. yes it is an amateur show, but I dont think that has any bearing on this issue, the tech and I have had many years experience in theatre,both on and off stage.He does do this sometimes in a professional capacity, but when I asked him why he insists on blacking out the final curtain, his answer was "It is protocol, and I am not going to look an idiot!" No reason, its just done that way. Well Im sorry but I need more of a reason than, its always been done that way.We have worked together on many succesful shows, but because this is my first solo directing I think it all boils down to the fact that he cannot stand taking orders from a cheaky young upstart like me.(Im 51 hes 52)But then now Im getting into the realms of personal issues. Wayne.

This is why I agree with you - I too would need more of a reason to do it, other than "it's protocol". If theatre was all the same and never changed, we'd still be doing it the way the Greeks did. If it doesn't change the outcome of the show, the audience reaction, and doesn't affect the actors/techs' ability to do the show, then why not do it? As for your designer's attitude of looking like an idiot: he has the perfect reason to do it without looking like an idiot. He can say he was asked to do it by the director, and if anyone asks him about it, he can blame you. ;) (Maybe this is an age thing. I'm 25, and never worked with anyone who would even consider worrying about curtains and lighting. Although that's probably more to do with the fact that I work in multi-purpose venues that have no curtains to worry about) Sticky Apple Legs www.freewebs.com/stickyapplelegs Puppets in Melbourne www.thepromptcopy.com/pip My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

Having worked on professional shows for 40 years I can assure you that in conventional theatre it was always the practice to fade the FOH lights as the curtain came in, lighting boards had a FOH inhibitor built in to make this easier.This practice tended to be used less from the 80's, but before that time was standard.Of course the directors decision is final, he/she is responsible for the "feel" of the show.

Which of course is exactly what I suggested in the first place. This is still standard practice in the UK where curtains are in place and the scene is to close on a lit stage. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

We have a show tonight, and after talking with you guys all week I will propose to him that we blackout the mainlighting but leave on the stage working lights.I just want the audience to see the main curtain closing thats all, good compromise? Thankyou for all your input on this subject, I will keep you informed on how it goes tonight. Wayne.

My suggestion is to take down your lighting from the front bars but leave the rest of the stage up, this way the audience sees the actors as the rag comes down but it does not look untidy. If your lighting bars are set up as a conventional stage, the actors only need to take a step back behind the rag to be fully lit from the stage LX1 bar.

He actually did compromise but I dont know if it was deliberate,he faded the lights slowly so the audience saw the curtains closing before BO. And it worked! There was instant applause!!It was great!And the actors did such a good job tonight, I was so proud of them.I thought with having 3 days off, they may have been a bit rusty, but it was better than ever.I have come home tonight feeling so much better. By the way, our curtains come in from the side, not down from the top.We perform in a memorial hall on the foreshore of the Mornington Peninsula,Victoria.

I am glad you have reached a compromise and are happy. In the end the show is the thing. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Congrats! I'm glad that the show went well, and that you have ended up being happy with the result Sticky Apple Legs www.freewebs.com/stickyapplelegs Puppets in Melbourne www.thepromptcopy.com/pip My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/