to musical or not to musical...?
Sat, 21 Aug 2004, 08:16 amWalter Plinge10 posts in thread
to musical or not to musical...?
Sat, 21 Aug 2004, 08:16 amrecently i had a discussion about the musical vs "legitimate" theatre, with some friends of mine, they expressed the veiwpoint that musical theatre cannot be construed as anything close to "real" theatre but as nothing more than a few songs and dances pushed together in an effort to try and make some kind of story... being a student of musical theatre myself i was horrified that anyone so closely involved with the artistic world (one being an actor the other a director of short films) could have such a strong conviction against the musical, i was forced to listen to argument after argument about how there were no real characters, no emotional depth etc etc. i would just like to know if this is a veiwpoint many of the theatre community have adopted or just a minority???
darian
(i did try to post a poll suggestion but either my computer literacy skills are even worse than i thought or it wasnt working!!! ;)
darian
(i did try to post a poll suggestion but either my computer literacy skills are even worse than i thought or it wasnt working!!! ;)
Re: to musical or not to musical...?
Thu, 26 Aug 2004, 10:33 amWalter Plinge
Leah M wrote:
> Why don't I like them? They make me uncomfortable, partly
> because they are hardly ever done well and partly because I
> find them boring. This may be because I don't have a proper
> appreciation for the nuances (although just reading Pauls
> post has gone a long way to remedy that).
As far as IÂ’m concerned, Leah, a lot of people who actually do musicals have no appreciation for the proper nuances either!
Leah M wrote:
> I was thinking about just this as I watched Faust last night.
Damn you all! Kim Martin (brother of Bruce) told me at rehearsals last night that it was quite possibly the best production that WA Opera have ever done.
Leah M wrote:
> "We've got to get going, Faust, time is up" over and over and
> over again with slightly different notes each time. The whole
> scene, if it was "straight" theatre, would have taken two
> minutes instead of twenty or a lot more would have to have
> gone into it.
Can anyone remember the wonderful sketch show Who Dares Wins?
They did a great dialogue between an opera lover and a non-opera lover, explaining why opera repeats itself so much. The answer went something like this.
In the middle of the third act the chorus comes on and starts singing:
“The King is dead. The King is dead. The King is dead. The. King. Is. Dead. Dead. Dead. The King. The King. Is dead. The King is dead dead dead dead dead dead. The King is dead. The King Is Dead. The King, the King, the King. He is Dead. Dead. Dead. Yes. Dead. Yes. He. Is. Dead.”
And in the middle of the front row two American tourists will turn around to each other and say:
“Wilbur, what happened?”
“I think someone died, Ethel!”
:-)
Leah M wrote:
> BUT, when I saw Assasins onstage at Playlovers years ago
> (first time I ever saw the Great DM perform) I was completely
> entranced, loved it, because it was SAYING something,
the meddoes wrote:
> Secondly, Sondheim - for all that's he's an irresistible
> tune-smith - is just as concerned with text as he is with
> melody, and consequently gives each equal weight.
Hence my theory that he is actually a lyricist who writes his own music, and not a composer who writes his own lyrics.
Leah M wrote:
> I think that musicals need to be appreciated in a completely
> different way to straight theatre. I look for certain things
> in a piece of theatre, I want it to teach me something or
> make me think about something in a different way, or I want
> it to make me laugh. I want to be involved, I want to care
> about the characters. I can't apply the same requirements I
> have of straight theatre to musicals, but those are the only
> requirements I know.
the meddoes wrote:
> Maybe you're not seeing the right ones. Maybe Sondheim is
> more your bag than R&H. Maybe as an opera-goer you'd be
> better off sticking to modern opera, or to quasi-fringe
> repertoire like Britten and Janacek.
Having some idea of your tastes, Leah, I would most definitely support DavidÂ’s assertion.
A friend of mine went to see HandelÂ’s Alcina a couple of years ago because she knew the lead soprano, when asked what she thought she replied that it would have been great if the singers had just shut up and let her listen to the musicÂ…
I think you would definitely like most of the Sondheim repertoire, and you probably would enjoy Britten more than the average opera-goer does. And I dare say you would probably adore something like Nixon in China.
HereÂ’s a test for you: Have you seen Lars Von TrierÂ’s Dancer in the Dark (Starring Bjork)? This is the film that won the Palme DÂ’Or a couple of years back and was booed when it was announced. And on the Movie Show David Stratton called it the worst film heÂ’d ever seen and gave it 0 while Margaret Pomeranz called it the film of the year and gave it a 5.
If you like this ugly little film (I love it!) then its not that you donÂ’t like musicals, you just donÂ’t like the way they are normally done.
Leah M wrote:
> In other words, I don't know what I am supposed to be looking
> for. My comment above about musicals not being done well,
> might be the fact that I don't know what "well" actually is.
the meddoes wrote:
> I personally think the biggest problem is that many of the
> people being paid good money to produce the stuff don't know
> what "well" is either.
Amen!
There is an old, old argument in opera: “Prima la musica? Prima la parole?” [Is that right, David?] First the music or first the words.
Despite the fact that many of the greatest composers in music theatre history believed that the words are more important (Monteverdi, Mozart, Wagner) many afficianados believe that the music should come first.
It all depends what you want: do you want MUSICAL theatre or do you want musical THEATRE.
Give me the latter every time!
Paul Treasure
PS Leah, come up and see Fiddler at the end of the year. It may be an old war horse, but it ainÂ’t tired yet and IÂ’m going to see if I canÂ’t breathe some more life into it.
> Why don't I like them? They make me uncomfortable, partly
> because they are hardly ever done well and partly because I
> find them boring. This may be because I don't have a proper
> appreciation for the nuances (although just reading Pauls
> post has gone a long way to remedy that).
As far as IÂ’m concerned, Leah, a lot of people who actually do musicals have no appreciation for the proper nuances either!
Leah M wrote:
> I was thinking about just this as I watched Faust last night.
Damn you all! Kim Martin (brother of Bruce) told me at rehearsals last night that it was quite possibly the best production that WA Opera have ever done.
Leah M wrote:
> "We've got to get going, Faust, time is up" over and over and
> over again with slightly different notes each time. The whole
> scene, if it was "straight" theatre, would have taken two
> minutes instead of twenty or a lot more would have to have
> gone into it.
Can anyone remember the wonderful sketch show Who Dares Wins?
They did a great dialogue between an opera lover and a non-opera lover, explaining why opera repeats itself so much. The answer went something like this.
In the middle of the third act the chorus comes on and starts singing:
“The King is dead. The King is dead. The King is dead. The. King. Is. Dead. Dead. Dead. The King. The King. Is dead. The King is dead dead dead dead dead dead. The King is dead. The King Is Dead. The King, the King, the King. He is Dead. Dead. Dead. Yes. Dead. Yes. He. Is. Dead.”
And in the middle of the front row two American tourists will turn around to each other and say:
“Wilbur, what happened?”
“I think someone died, Ethel!”
:-)
Leah M wrote:
> BUT, when I saw Assasins onstage at Playlovers years ago
> (first time I ever saw the Great DM perform) I was completely
> entranced, loved it, because it was SAYING something,
the meddoes wrote:
> Secondly, Sondheim - for all that's he's an irresistible
> tune-smith - is just as concerned with text as he is with
> melody, and consequently gives each equal weight.
Hence my theory that he is actually a lyricist who writes his own music, and not a composer who writes his own lyrics.
Leah M wrote:
> I think that musicals need to be appreciated in a completely
> different way to straight theatre. I look for certain things
> in a piece of theatre, I want it to teach me something or
> make me think about something in a different way, or I want
> it to make me laugh. I want to be involved, I want to care
> about the characters. I can't apply the same requirements I
> have of straight theatre to musicals, but those are the only
> requirements I know.
the meddoes wrote:
> Maybe you're not seeing the right ones. Maybe Sondheim is
> more your bag than R&H. Maybe as an opera-goer you'd be
> better off sticking to modern opera, or to quasi-fringe
> repertoire like Britten and Janacek.
Having some idea of your tastes, Leah, I would most definitely support DavidÂ’s assertion.
A friend of mine went to see HandelÂ’s Alcina a couple of years ago because she knew the lead soprano, when asked what she thought she replied that it would have been great if the singers had just shut up and let her listen to the musicÂ…
I think you would definitely like most of the Sondheim repertoire, and you probably would enjoy Britten more than the average opera-goer does. And I dare say you would probably adore something like Nixon in China.
HereÂ’s a test for you: Have you seen Lars Von TrierÂ’s Dancer in the Dark (Starring Bjork)? This is the film that won the Palme DÂ’Or a couple of years back and was booed when it was announced. And on the Movie Show David Stratton called it the worst film heÂ’d ever seen and gave it 0 while Margaret Pomeranz called it the film of the year and gave it a 5.
If you like this ugly little film (I love it!) then its not that you donÂ’t like musicals, you just donÂ’t like the way they are normally done.
Leah M wrote:
> In other words, I don't know what I am supposed to be looking
> for. My comment above about musicals not being done well,
> might be the fact that I don't know what "well" actually is.
the meddoes wrote:
> I personally think the biggest problem is that many of the
> people being paid good money to produce the stuff don't know
> what "well" is either.
Amen!
There is an old, old argument in opera: “Prima la musica? Prima la parole?” [Is that right, David?] First the music or first the words.
Despite the fact that many of the greatest composers in music theatre history believed that the words are more important (Monteverdi, Mozart, Wagner) many afficianados believe that the music should come first.
It all depends what you want: do you want MUSICAL theatre or do you want musical THEATRE.
Give me the latter every time!
Paul Treasure
PS Leah, come up and see Fiddler at the end of the year. It may be an old war horse, but it ainÂ’t tired yet and IÂ’m going to see if I canÂ’t breathe some more life into it.
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