Amateur versus Community

Sun, 29 Oct 2006, 12:03 pm

Logos25 posts in thread

When did we start using Community rather than Amateur and why? I can still remember a time when the word amateur was proudly worn by a number of theatre companys. After all the word means basically " for the love of" and means far more than unpaid. The top skilled amateurs are not far from professional in ability and the best companies manage very high production values indeed. I have to say that the Scouts are getting quite frightening from that point of view.

Community Theatre at least in the seventies menat something else entirely and related to professional company's working in and with the general community companys like Junction and Troupe here in Adelaide. Exploring local issues and producing performance pieces addressing those issues. They caot a fortune to run of course and as funding became harder and harder in the eighties and ninties they vanished.

So back to the first question. Are we no longer proud of amateur status, is it something we try to avoid as a label. Do we feel that the term community theatre has a better image. Any thoughts.

Thread (25 posts)

Threaded Flat

LogosSun, 29 Oct 2006, 12:03 pm

So back to the first question. Are we no longer proud of amateur status, is it something we try to avoid as a label. Do we feel that the term community theatre has a better image. Any thoughts.

LabrugSun, 29 Oct 2006, 01:44 pm

Presentation

I too have noticed this shift in terminology. As to why, I can only speculate. I think many in the "business" have become sick and tired of the misrepresentation that the term Amateur has had within the general community itself. Whilst many if not most of those that I have worked with understand the true meaning behind the term, they also express their concerns about how others (non-thespians) see it. I generally agree that for the sake of representation, saying Community Theatre as opposed to Amateur does evoke a more suitable response from potential audience members.

As a post from some years back states (http://www.theatre.asn.au/node/10101) "Amateur is not a dirty word. We all know that. The problem is that far more do not.

I see it as getting them in the door then hit 'em with the truth, and in the end, whatever gets more tickets bought, more bums on seats, more drinks from the bar, then the more future there will be for Amateur Theatre in this country.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

NaSun, 29 Oct 2006, 01:48 pm

I personally prefer the

I personally prefer the term 'amateur'. In the professional arena of theatre, there are many companies who work within 'community theatre' - a phrase meant to refer to creating performances based on, by and with, local communities or groups (for instance, Melbourne Workers' Theatre, who work with groups and unions to express their views and problems of issues in the workplace). Other 'community theatre' references for those work in the professional area include TIE (Theatre In Education). It makes it very difficult to distinguish the paid/unpaid roles and amateur and professional companies, when community theatre is used to refer to both areas. I don't think that the label of 'amateur' suggests anything other than an interest in theatre that has remained a hobby. But I would like it if there was a better set of terms as a clarification for each area of our industries. The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

Bass GuySun, 29 Oct 2006, 09:04 pm

Not to wax anti-semantic...

I have a dislike for both "amateur" and "community" as descriptive terms. I prefer "local". "Amateur" still to this day has an unfortunate connotation that goes beyond "unpaid" to mean "second-rate" (and we've ALL seen professional shows that highlight THAT falsity!), and I find "community" to be unbearably patronising. ie: the "gay community" or the "muslim community". We are not a suburb, or an interest group- this is more an interesting group in your suburb. For me, "local" has far more resonance with the people I talk to about this insane hobby- it almost makes feel that they SHOULD be involved because they then perceive that it happens in their area. And before you all ask, this has NOTHING to do with the League Of Gentlemen... I know what some of you are thinking... "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."- Jaco Pastorius

NaMon, 30 Oct 2006, 03:19 pm

My local

I think local is also too broad. My 'local' theatre would be Flying Bookworm (professional TIE company) who happen to live in my road. Or perhaps the 'local' amateur group would be Hartwell Players... Or even more local - my own company, which is professional. The problem with these terms is that they are too ambiguous. The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

Bass GuyMon, 30 Oct 2006, 11:32 pm

So waddya suggest???

Na naturally noted; "The problem with these terms is that they are too ambiguous." Agreed. The same thing happens with music. I write bizarre musical noises that people say is unmarketable because they can't pigeon-hole it as "brand X". I happen to call it "music", and that seems to work. Is the same true of theatre in its myriad forms? To quote Zappa's "Joe's Garage Act 3"; ...."and ultimately, who gives a f*@# anyway??" El "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."- Jaco Pastorius

LogosTue, 31 Oct 2006, 08:06 am

It's a bit ironic that I

It's a bit ironic that I started this as I am opposed to easy "labelling" as it allows people to judge by the label rather than by the product. If you label me you define me in your world view rather than mine. It's all theatre. Now I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I exist a little precariously on the cusp between amateur and professional. I earn a bare living from what I do. It concerns me that some of us are frightened to be labelled amateur because of the wider communities view of that as second rate. I'll ask another question. Is it actually the wider community view that worries them or the view of the professional Arts world that assumes amateur = crap. In my experience very few of the genuine Joe Public actually totally understands that some shows they see are fully amateur and some professional. They judge by quality of entertainment alone. Professional artists on the other hand can be incredibly patronising about amateur theatre as can some reviewers. Further comments? Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

LabrugTue, 31 Oct 2006, 08:25 am

Pro-Patronise

"..very few of the genuine Joe Public actually totally understands.." is very true and once they are in the door, rarely can they tell the difference. In my experience the difficulty has been getting them in the door.

"Professional artists on the other hand can be incredibly patronising about amateur theatre.." which is were the problem may rest. Many potential audience members (and here I am referring to New Potential not existing) would consider "Professional" theatre to "know better" and therefor take the same attitude as professional artists, and yes that attitude is rather patronising.

I was once advised that if I was to pursue a career in Professional Theatre, then I was to completely abandon Amateur as I would not be as highly regarded. I think that is particularly sad and at the time said so, to which I was told, that is simply the way it is. "If you want to be professional, you must be nothing but to be successful."

Why throw away the wonderful training ground and experimental environment that is Amateur Theatre just because a few encrusted old hams think so? In fact, it was almost enough to put me off going into Professional Theatre all together.

Personally, Amateur is the right description for what we do, for the love of it, but the sad truth is that by the very word, getting people involved in it can be a challenge. So we butter it up, put it in a new package and re-sell it just like any other service provider or production line, and once we have them in the door, tasting the wares, then they can learn the truth.

Of (nearly) every Amateur actor I have ever worked with, none is adverse to calling themselves Amateur and most do so with pride, but that is after you learn the truth behind the word. After all, it is all just theatre.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

Tari-XalyrTue, 31 Oct 2006, 08:49 am

Soup Cans!

ONLY SOUP CANS NEED LABELS!! And it bugs me how people try to put labels on things, including other human beings. Alas this is how the world attempts to simplify things. It is true that most "average joes" don't know the difference between "amatuer" and "professional." They do just judge on performance and entertainment quality. (I should know. lol. I've just introduced my family to a cultural whirlwind and they nearly died of shock when I said it wasn't "professional" theatre.) I haven't had much experience dealing with the two "labels" - if you will. So I'm not able to make as informed a comment there but from what I've been reading and gathering from other people is that there is quite a divide between "pro" and "am" - although like in everything it's being disguised or swept under the rug. People need to admit that they can learn alot off each other and a label should not stop this learning process. In an industry that is always changing so rapidly then to learn from the "other side of the tracks" may be a good thing. Or is it that some have forgotten a love for the art form and now it is merely a job?? (because it's time for a change if thats the case!) ~ Tari The Writer is a child forever listening at the keyhole of the adult world.

LabrugTue, 31 Oct 2006, 09:21 am

Learning from each other

"People need to admit that they can learn alot off each other and a label should not stop this learning process."

There you make a very important and valid statement. I am glad that we are starting to see a break down of this barrier in recent events. The events with UPstageWA have done this very thing. People who are involved in Professional Theatre, or are Pro-Am, have seen the need to break this taboo and have offered their points of view, advise and experience to anyone who is interested. No distinctions.

But I am not here to blow the trumpet of UPstageWA. The time was already ripe for a change and we are simply here at the right time providing the avenue for networking and communication. The hope is to see this avenue open up more and more until the distinction between either side becomes so blurred that theatre truely becomes just that.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

LogosTue, 31 Oct 2006, 10:02 am

I've just seen an advert

I've just seen an advert for the Heidelberg Theatre Company where they refer to them selves as a "non-professional company". Is that the way to go? Or then will we be accused of having a non-professional attitude. It is becoming harder and harder to make a living in this business. performing Arts becomes more expensive to mount and there are fewer and fewer producers around willing to risk money and reputation. Smaller cast shows are chosen and so the depth of employment in the industry reduces. A closer relationship between amateur and pro could seriously assist in this area. In the south of england where I was living the pro-am opera company flourishes. The company hires a pro orchestra and pro singers from among the young emerging artists and puts them on stage in front of an amateur chorus. It gives the young singers a chance to sing roles that they would normally not get a crack at for some time and gives an opportunity for reasonably priced opera for the public as well as giving enthusiastic amatuer singers the opportunity to sing some glorious scores. A model we could all do well to examine. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Robert WhyteTue, 31 Oct 2006, 10:18 am

Well, for what it is worth,

Well, for what it is worth, in my experience, when I have talked to friends and work colleagues and family about my theatre exploits/current show etc and used the term "community theatre", I was oft asked "what's a community theatre?" and then had do go on and explain by using the word "amateur", so I think we have made assumptions of these terms based on our inside knowledge. There is still a lot of ignorance about the non professional theatre, and still a lot of the wider community that still do not know we exist at all(a situation not helped by the previous Arts editor of the West Australian who ignored us for well over a decade). To my mind calling ourselves "Community Theatre" is apologist in its approach, whereas "Amateur" means "for the love of it". I dont think those of us with a passion for performing live really need a distinction - theatre is theatre no matter what context it is presented - or how politically correct the terminology we give to it. I does not matter if it is amateur, co-op, pro-am, or professional,we all know that all reach great heights, and sink to great depths - paid or unpaid. I call it theatre, period. My Five Cents Worth Robert. :-)

Craig K EdwardsTue, 31 Oct 2006, 11:32 am

its a matter of overlapping but not equivalent definitions folks

(sigh)... They are different terms and they relate to different things. One can be an amateur company without being a community theatre company. An amateur production is ANY production that doesn't pay its participants. It is the opposite of 'professional', which simply means that one gets paid for it - nothing more and nothing less, it is not a comment upon skill, qualification or dedication. A COMMUNITY theatre production, however, is a production put on that is linked to a particular COMMUNITY (duh!), often but not always defined by membership. Most companies that are members of ITA are not only amateur companies but are also community theatre companies - because they are strongly linked to a particular geographic area and membership base. Further, in Perth at least, most community theatre companies are incorporated in a manner that guarantees that all profits will go back into the company for future productions. If the company folds the money is donated to the arts, rather than reimbusing anyone who started the company. That is not necessarily the case for all amateur companies. A good reason for the distinction can be seen through the several exploitative amateur musical theatre companies that pop up to plague Perth every few years. Those companies are amateur alright, in that no-one (except maybe the director or/and musicians) gets paid. But they are privately run and the producer pockets the profits. This is a VERY good reason to emphasise the distinction between amateur and community. If you are going to do amateur theatre, then make sure it is with a COMMUNITY theatre company, so that you are contributing to the arts rather than being exploited for someone else's profit. Regarding the pro-am idea - frankly I'm not certain that its necessary and I'm not comfortable with the idea of productions where some people are paid and other aren't. There is no shortage of actors in Perth who get paid for a portion of the work they do (and hence fall within the meaning of professional, or at least part-time professional), who still have connections with and perform their local community theatre company. And due to the sheer commonality of this, they don't strut around demanding payment to partake in an otherwise amateur play.Having some two-tier system simply perpetuates the myth of community theatre being some 'lower' level of theatre, rather than a club by which people can participate in creating art regardless of whether they have made it their job. Further, there is already such a rich cross-over in the co-op/share-of-profits scene that goes on through the Blue Room / Rechabites etc, which draws on a wide range of performers from top-line full-time professionals to those who might never get paid outside a profit-share production, and the beauty of that system is that they ALL get paid and treated as equals.

Alex NicolTue, 31 Oct 2006, 02:24 pm

What's in a name

For what it's worth a survey conducted here in Wagga where we have.. a university ensemble consisting of performing arts students, a professional theatre company... The Riverina Theatre Company... a very active Council owned theatre with its own subscription season as well as normal hiring shows and a couple of quasi professional cabaret type companies and a community theatre group... now there's a mouthful The Survey showed pretty clearly that the audience members didn't have a clue which company they were watching. More often than not their preference , if any, was based on the venue As far as I'm concerned the local community theatre company is called that because it encourages anyone in the community to contribute and denies access to no one in the community. It is of and for the community. Makes sense Still I guess it hides behind the acronym SOACT ( school of Arts Community Theatre The best Nic

NaTue, 31 Oct 2006, 03:59 pm

We've had this discussion

We've had this discussion before somewhere.... I think what ended up being somewhat the consensus, is that some amateur companies are very professional (in artwork and in viewpoint), while some professional companies can act very amateur. Why don't we just call ourselves artists, and lose some of the distinction? After all, many of us work in both areas. The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

NaTue, 31 Oct 2006, 04:08 pm

As for choosing only to do

As for choosing only to do professional I've done this. But not for the above reason. I figure that since I have trained to be a professional, and want to work professionally, why spend time working on a show for free, when I could be getting paid. This also applies with profit-share and co-op. There are so many people out there who say they'll pay you, or who simply aren't good to work with (for whatever reason), in co-op theatre, that I only work co-op with people I'm friends with. This isn't meant to be offensive to the amateur community - it's just that there is so little time to share between 'normal' (making a living) work and theatre. The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

Daniel KershawTue, 31 Oct 2006, 04:10 pm

Let's all just call

Let's all just call ourselves crazy.

LabrugTue, 31 Oct 2006, 04:20 pm

Sole Figure

Speak for yourself Dan. Personally, I am certifiable.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

NaTue, 31 Oct 2006, 05:26 pm

A thought

Actually, there are some members of the 'community' (teehee) who see anything and everything. My great uncle's girlfriend sees everything in Melbourne - is such a regular at the VAC that she knows all the FOH staff by name, sees the Malvern Theatre (amateur) regularly, goes to the opera, even goes to some of the lesser known venues... The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

LogosWed, 1 Nov 2006, 09:04 am

There's a lady here in

There's a lady here in Adelaide who is on every mailing list in the State and tells me she on average goes to the theatre a couple of times a week. She's an associate member of every theatre company that runs that kind of scheme and she loves it all. She is very aware of what is "amateur" and what is "professional". She just loves theatre. Long may she live and may many more of her kind come into existence. Some of the debate here is starting to play with how some terms have begun to be semantically loaded. Sure the actual definition of amatuer is "for the love of it" and the definition of professional is "for pay" but attitudes and quality of work have begun to be hung upon these terms and amateur has become a word that is semantically loaded in the negative. Hence, I beleive, Community Theatre. Community Theatre however for me and obviously for Na means something else entirely it means professional (ie Paid) theatre working within a community (geographical, racial, cultural etc) and producing work that is relevant to concerns and issues of that community and I am glad to hear that it survives in Melbourne. By the way Na, my comments about pro's looking down their noses at amateurs are aimed at a particular type of pro who almost certainly would not be active on a site like this. I'm sure you recognise the breed. Local theatre sounds good to me. In relation to some people getting paid on shows and others not. For many years we have been paying musicians who play for our musicals. Many of these people are in fact not fully pro musicians as they have other day jobs. I am not critiscising this situation but suggesting that if we are clear about who gets paid and why up front than if the performers who are not getting paid still want to do it then fine. Craig the phenomenon of producers of "amateur" theatre who are lining their own pockets and not paying performers is not unique to Perth as I am sure you are aware. If I work for them they pay me. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

NaWed, 1 Nov 2006, 03:25 pm

I agree...

I don't think most people in 'professional only' areas even know about this site... The Prompt Copy Networking emerging theatre professionals www.thepromptcopy.com Sticky Apple Legs http://stickyapplelegs.artsblogs.com Puppets in Melbourne www.freewebs.com/puppetsinmelbourne

LabrugThu, 2 Nov 2006, 08:32 am

Investigate

That's one good reason to find out how many do! ;-)

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

grantwatsonSun, 5 Nov 2006, 01:58 pm

I think that theatre is

I think that theatre is theatre. Whether you do it for money or do it for free, acting is acting, directing is directing and so on. Professional theatre doesn't bother to tell everyone that it's professional - it's just theatre. Why should unpaid theatre have to distinguish itself separately? For the paying audience, a play is a play, and how much everyone involved got paid makes no difference to the person watching the show. I've acted professionally and acted for free, and I can honestly state that I put as much effort and thought into the free gigs as I did the paid ones, and I suspect you all would say the same about yourselves. Stop selling yourselves short: theatre is theatre.

LabrugSun, 5 Nov 2006, 07:07 pm

Thank god you're here

Hi there Grant. Good to see you on the site. I can easily say that your advise will be extremely useful to interested members.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins
Perth based Actor/Performer
who can also sing and dance
Fight/Sword Choreographer
Virgin Director
UPstageWA Rep

Home Page

Craig K EdwardsMon, 6 Nov 2006, 12:31 am

we're not alone

Heyas again, Grant Watson mentioned above a fact that everone HERE knows that everyone else HERE agrees with - that theatre is theatre. But sometimes people wonder if the general public thinks the same? Well, think of this: whilst professional theatre in Perth has been arguably (well, statistically, if you're going to measure over decades) dying - and at the very least is fighting for mainstream relevance, do you know what the MOST common surveyed cultural activity amongst Perth residents was last year? Going to the theatre. Their local community theatre. Now I'm not going to pretend that GRADS summer shakespeare is better than Bell Shakespeare (to put that comment in context: I've acted in 6 of the past 8 GRADS summer shakespeares, but I strongly doubt I'd ever get a guernsey with Bell:-)). But what the above fact shows, is that in terms of dollar-value, providing a great night's entertainment at a reasonable cost.....community theatre wins handsdown. Back on the original topic - I remember another reason why I like the term 'community theatre' (and yes I realise that the general public doesn't differentiate between such terms - I'm just explaining my preference). I remember in much younger days, before I developed my current aversion to sunlight, I used to compete in a different type of club - the local surf-lifesaving swimming tournaments. Now many people might not know this, but if you go over to the national surflifesaving club championships, you'll see all of Australia's top olympic swimmers - Grant Hackett, Ian Thorp etc all swimming under their local club colours. Now a lot of people would think that as Olympic champions, swimming for a club-meet would be beneath them. But no, it's still their local club, and they're a part of it. So what has that got to do with theatre, you ask? Rightly or wrongly, I just think that community theatre sounds so much more inclusive. It gives the idea that this is a club where someone can learn to act/direct/stagemanage, and then go on to perform regularly with for the rest of their performing life, irrespective of whether they make performing their job outside of that club. Where people who work in offices by day can perform with people who act professionally or part-professionally in an environment where such distinctions are meaningless, simply because they both have histories of performing with, watching and being part of that theatre group. Ok, so maybe that's wildly optimistic - but I think it's exactly what local theatre groups should aim for. I think that, more than any definitional issue, is probably the main reason why my preference is for the term 'community theatre'. But, yes, I acknowledge and agree that as many of you have said, it's all pretty irrelevant anyway, theatre is theatre. Actor, martial artist and soon-to-be (as of Jan 07!!! Philosophy PhD student. Making myself less employable one step at a time:-)

← Back to Green Room Gossip