***k**g advertisements

Am I the only one on this board getting incredibly annoyed by the sheer number of advertisements v audition notices on the auditions page? Now, I'm sure that the 'Actors Workshop', 'Method Studio' and that 'Shangralai' (or something like that) all sell fine products, but my confidence in their knowledge base is somewhated eroded by their apparent confusion as to the meaning of the word 'audition'.

An 'audition' is a thing where actors wishing to gain a part in a production, or entrance to a funded drama school, or just get on someone's casting books, come along and perform a piece of (usually) prepared work. Fortunately, this lovely and indispensible website has a WHOLE PAGE devoted to letting actors around Australia know when community and independant theatre organisations are holding their auditions.

An 'advertisement' is a message/flier/article/website-posting/sound-byte etc used to promote awareness of a product. Advertisements can be quite useful in informing people that a particular product (eg a drama class) is available. They do not, however, bear any resemblance to auditions.

I would have thought that acting schools (of all things) might be sufficiently aware of the concept of an 'audition' to understand the difference.

There is on this site a bill-board, green-room gossip forum and a 'what's on' section where advertisements for theatrical products such as acting schools would probably be more suitable. Cluttering the auditions notices with them just provides ammunition for bored pedants like me to similarly clutter this forum with trivial posts.

Cheers,
Craig

"….And the ‘Gaffer Tape Award goes too …..CRAIG!!!!!
Gud on ya Craig-very well said!!!

Chookas
Joe

The name Craig is obviously ancient Gaelic for "self-appointed watchdog of the website".


Perhaps if the opening for a new course seeking participants is a one-off (or accepts enrolments by audition), they can be justified posting in the audition section. But if it's an ongoing regular occurance, and the post really just equates to advertising, it probably belongs in the 'Theatre Classifieds' section?



Mind you, that's the trouble with advertising....we've established an indication that the "Audition" section gets a lot of reader traffic...so no wonder that's where they want to post.

I certainly want to keep supporting the guys who run those particular courses....so I trust they'll take note of Craig K's concern and be extra-responsible in using the resources of the site. The more organised and user-friendly we keep it, the more valuable it is as a resource.

Cheers,
Craig W

[%sig%]

Hi Craig (as opposed to crg)

> Am I the only one on this board getting incredibly annoyed by the sheer number
> of advertisements v audition notices on the auditions page?

I'll cop a portion of the blame for this one, Craig. I've not provided any particular means of advertising classes, courses, workshops, what-have-you on the site beyond using the message boards - and messages there have a tendency to disappear in a day or so. Ideally there should be a separate events section for these types of activities.

I think most of the companies and people advertising in this fashion have the very best intentions and deserve our support. Provided they clearly indicate in the title that it's a workshop and not an audition and don't flood the audition section by selecting a couple of weeks worth of dates, it doesn't bother me.

> Cluttering the auditions notices with them just provides ammunition for bored
> pedants like me to similarly clutter this forum with trivial posts.

If you're truly bored, get in touch with me about some instruction in web programming and I'll show you how to code that new events section.

;-)

Cheers
Grant

[%sig%]

Hi Craig, Crg, Joe and Grant

Speaking as one of the people who are flooding the Auditions section with posts for classes (and at the same time understanding very well the semantic faux pas of this action), I would like to both apologise and explain.

First the apology. I realise that finding genuine auditions is getting slightly more difficult, but I do try to post only every few days, and not daily. I am sorry for any inconvenience this causes.

Now for an explanation. The problem here is the very success of the website. People do read and take notice of it. I have only been in Perth a short(ish) while, but this is by far the best means of reaching people I have seen. I took out an expensive ad for classes in the West Australian, and for all the good it did I might as well have just set fire to my money. The forums here are difficult to use as messages do vanish so quickly. As Grant says, an events section working on the same lines as Auditions would be a boon. Or even simpler to code perhaps would be to change the title of the section to Auditions/Events? Then even the pedants amongst us (of whom I claim charter membership) could rest easy.

Stephen Lee

The main reason that I find "flooding" the various bulletin board forums rather rude is exactly because of the short-term nature of most messages. It doesn't take long for a topic to be shunted down the list as new and longer topics get posted above it....so when someone posts endless copies of the same message on one of these boards, it effectively shortens the life of other people's message threads even more, which is a bit aggressive and thoughtless.

As Stephen has pointed out, that's actually also a good reason to NOT post too many advertisements in the forums - they tend to disappear and just get crowded with everyone else's posts.


The good thing about the Audition section is the way it shows an entire week and can be organised by date. All you have to do is be selective about picking one day each week (preferably where not many other events are on), and your message will stay on the list the entire week, and repeat the next week.

So if I have an event that isn't actually specific audition days, but I'm looking for actors to join my group/class/course, I only need to put a message in every Tuesday, say, and make it clear in the subject that it's a notice to enrol (or whatever); and when the course has started or is no longer taking enrolments my notice can drop off the list.


There's so much similarity between actors looking for auditions / actors looking for events to participate in, that they can quite easily exist in the same section...in fact it's pretty useful that they do.
The Audition section is probably the most highly read section here, and it's a reasonable assumption to think most people who browse there will not stop at one but probably look at ALL offers there...like job hunting, you want to peruse all the options. There's little point in repeating a message in the same week unless it really is day-specific (ie auditions for my play this Mon, Tues and Wed night at 6pm)...it's going to be seen.

If it gets too crowded with repeating messages, it just makes it all really hard to read and defeats the purpose a bit...I think that's what gets annoying to readers. I trust that people posting there can figure out an effective way to use it wisely, because yes, it's a damn useful - and FREE - resource !!! Yay!


Cheers,
Craig

[%sig%]

Oh dear, I drop a troll-ish post about advertisements and it sprouts into an actual discussion (for those who don't know what 'troll-ish' means in a forum context, I'm not explaining - just keep clicking on random web links until you too rise to a higher state of internet-nerdiness). Oh aren't we fun, lively people us entertainment types.

To be fair, I actually (begrudgingly) find myself agreeing with most of what has been posted above. I guess that just like mobile phones, three-quarter length jeans, the capitalist system, interpretative dance and those little bugs that bite and itch when you don't shower often enough, advertisements are simply a necessary evil that must be endured.

And yes, I will concede that most of the courses/products advertised on the site are quite useful. I've even searched the forums in the past trying to find info on a product (where CAN you buy those tapes that teach foreign accents anyway?).

At the same time, I also believe that where a course is being run for profit, even if it is a top quality and highly useful course, if it is using something like a web-site to advertise commercially it should pay a contribution towards the running costs of the website. I recognise that like theatre companies, theatre courses vary in size, financial resources etc and may not be able to afford ongoing market-value advertising costs. However, even a token contribution charged would provide acknowledgement of the fact that where you are using a free service to make personal profit, there is a duty to maintain that service. Actually, I wouldn't have the faintest clue about the running of this website, and am speaking of the top of my head with little to no forethought and far more conviction than I genuinely possess - but I am interested whether anyone agrees with me all the same.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig wrote:

"...where a course is being run for profit, even if it is a top quality and highly useful course, if it is using something like a web-site to advertise commercially it should pay a contribution towards the running costs of the website... even a token contribution charged would provide acknowledgement of the fact that where you are using a free service to make personal profit, there is a duty to maintain that service."

I write:
What about people who audition for co-op shows? Technically, aren't they too operating to make a profit (in most cases)? Should these people also pay a fee to advertise on the site?

I reckon just scroll right by an audition/event posting that you do not want to read. It as easy as that.

cheers,
Michelle

Yes Craig I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph, I thought I was a lone voice.
A good beginning for anyone who uses this site to advertise could be to actually subscribe to the ITA, it's not expensive $75 a year for a 'group/club/organisation' and it would help defray expenses. I know that our web-master prefers this site to be freely accessible to all without restrictions but it's time for a rethink.
(I'll probably get myself in trouble with El President ITA for making unauthorised statements, but these are my personal opinions and not ITA policy)


Thou beslubbering clay-brained minnow!
(Nothing personal intended, you know there're random?)

Hi Norma, Craig et. al

Norma Davis wrote:
> Yes Craig I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph, I
> thought I was a lone voice.

Maybe we could put this up as a poll for crgwllms and see how lonely you and Craig are?

:-)

> A good beginning for anyone who uses this site to advertise
> could be to actually subscribe to the ITA, it's not expensive
> $75 a year for a 'group/club/organisation' and it would help
> defray expenses.

I'd like to wholeheartedly endorse Norma's suggestions. The ITA could make very effective use of funds from more subscriptions to support theatre companies, performing artists and foster more endeavours like this website.

It's worth bearing in mind though that as far as defraying website expenses is concerned, the site only costs the ITA $44 per annum to keep the domain name registered and that charge was only introduced a little more than a year ago.

The vast bulk of the cost of maintaining the site rests with our generous hosts at Informed Technology (who incidentally are based in WA, so probably don't benefit a great deal from a site operating at a national level!) and the hundreds of volunteers who make micro-investments of time of effort to build a fantastic resource.

> I know that our web-master prefers this site
> to be freely accessible to all without restrictions but it's
> time for a rethink.

:-)

As Norma knows, I've argued very strongly in the past that the strength of this site rests in the fact that it is able to offer it's services free of charge. As soon as we start charging, even for some services, we start to exclude some people from participating. The user-pays model, as we've all seen ample evidence of over the last few years, eventually leads to those in position to afford to pay fees dominating the media and squeezing out smaller voices.

It's always time to rethink the issue, but just because the issue bears constant rexamination and reevaluation doesn't mean that it's time has or will ever come.

Now, some kind of sponsorhsip deal or project funding to support site development and real-world marketing.... there's an idea!

Cheers
Grant


Thou droning elf-skinned haggard!

[%sig%]

Hey Grant, don't point the finger at me - I SAID it was just for the sake of argument:- )

Craig

How about forums for the purpose of advertising courses? A forum about training?

Just a thought................... OUCH!!!!!

Jeff

Just as a follow-up to that last thought, what about two levels of advertising?

Level 1 would be the training/advert forum itself. Costs nothing, is not high profile and only people who actually go to the forum will see it.

Level 2 High Profile Paid advertising. WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!! Before you start thinking BANNERS!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Banners ARE NOT what I am suggesting. A nice little HIGH PROFILE spot is on the HOME page for ITA right under the Current Poll window. Advertisers who would like to RENT such a spot would be charged a small fee (Duh! Rent - Fee - Good one Jeff, double description). These spaces would be for short term hire only.

I suggest this after Grant's concerns about Free Access. This still provides free access to users which is this sites best feature and free advertising through the appropriate forum. The idea to charge for High profile advertising could help funding issues with ITA itself.

With all this thinking, my brain really hurts now.......

Jeff "Thud" Watkins

Not too sure about the "insult" at the end Grant!! when I've finished this I'll hit the button and see what arrives.

I hope lots of "organisations" who freely use this site will read yours and my postings, and perhaps have a tiny twinge of conscience, and subscribe to the ITA. We live in hope, and I won't finish the quotation. Like this site we do try to put into the Link as much 'non-member' items as we can for the sake of the theatre going people among us. I must admit to getting a bit cross that non-members thus get absolutely free advertising without having contributed ANYTHING.
(There are some exceptions,we have had the odd free tickets)


Thou weedy knotty-pated mammet!

argle!

Jeff, just came across your earlier message re. problems with login. Still having difficulty?

er.. sorry should probably take this off the boards and deal with it through email.

Cheers
Grant

[%sig%]

I personally think that the idea of advertising groups being ITA members is a good one. But here I think the ITA shoots itself in the foot. When I first came to this site as a newbie, I was interested in finding out about joining. I trawled the whole site, expecting to find somewhere a "Want to be a member?" section, with information on cost and details on whom to contact. Did I just miss it, or is this actually not present?

Most other sites on the web are very pro-active about campaigning for people to join up and pay. I actually assumed for a long while that the ITA was not an organisation that needed paid membership. While I am all for keeping the site free and accessible, a little encouragement and promotion of the benefits of ITA membership would surely be in order.

Stephen Lee

Excellent point Stephen. We need to do something about it - pronto.
I think it is probably a symptom of how the site has grown.
The ITA is constantly reassessing itself and its promotion, but sometimes, like all organisations, we can miss things that are right under our nose. Thankyou for pointing this out.

Kimberley Shaw
Vice President of the ITA
of course this post is personal opinion and not necessarily the official policy of the ITA ;)

Hi Stephen,
Good point, there is a bit on the front page about the ITA but I agree it doesn't go far enough. Grant, can we get the membership form on-line?
HOWEVER now everyone (or at least everyone who reads the Billboards) knows that we do need you all - and your money - here goes

"Join the Independent Theatre Association for just $75 a year (groups/clubs/organisations) or $25 for individuals and not only but also.... get your activities officially listed in the monthly magazine and help us to further the cause of 'theatre' in WA, sorry that's being parochial, in Australia".
The membership year starts on July 1st so anyone joining from now gets membership until June 30 2004. Contact the office on 9420.7242 (you may get the dreaded answering machine but we do listen to it) and we will happily send you a vividly coloured membership form. This is so that you don't easily mislay it underneath everything else on your desk!

I forgot, in my previous message, to add that, member or not, we do try to include as much info in the Link about theatrical activities from companies while not actually mentioning the fully professional shows. We figure they can afford the advertising!
This is IF someone sends me the ifo in time.
I repeat DEADLINE IS 2OTH OF THE PRECEEDING MONTH and you've got my e-mail address!!!

Thou frothy dismal-dreaming foot-licker!
(I swear this list of insults has a mind)

Yes Grant, I am and it would also appear that you haven't received any of my e-mails!!!!!!!!! I've sent to gmalcolm@cygnus.uwa.edu.au and you don't reply there. E-mail me at;

labrug@hotmail.com or
jeffrey.watkins@justice.wa.gov.au

or Both.....

Jeff.

Norma Davis wrote:
> Good point, there is a bit on the front page about the ITA
> but I agree it doesn't go far enough. Grant, can we get the
> membership form on-line?

Assuming you have it handy on your computer in electronic format, you certainly can!

You'll notice two fields labelled attachment in the Reply To This Message section, just below where your name, email and subject appears when posting a message.

Click the browse button.

Select the membership form from your wherever it is on your computer and Open it.

Post your message as usual and the form/image/pdf/file will be attached to your message.

:-)

The extra field is there just in case you wanted to attach two files!

And just in case someone missed Norma's original post....

> "Join the Independent Theatre Association for just $75 a year
> (groups/clubs/organisations) or $25 for individuals and not
> only but also.... get your activities officially listed in
> the monthly magazine and help us to further the cause of
> 'theatre' in WA, sorry that's being parochial, in Australia".
> The membership year starts on July 1st so anyone joining from
> now gets membership until June 30 2004. Contact the office on
> 9420.7242 (you may get the dreaded answering machine but we
> do listen to it) and we will happily send you a vividly
> coloured membership form. This is so that you don't easily
> mislay it underneath everything else on your desk!

And yes, Norma, the insult button seems to be choosing with unerring accuracy as always.

;-)

Cheers
Grant

Thou roguish swag-bellied maggot-pie!

[%sig%]

Hi Grant,
Er, yes! The membership form is on the office computer and I.m doing this at home. however it shouldn't take too much intelligence on my part to transfer it to a disk and thence attach it. However I seem to remember that I did (once) try to attach something and got no-where.
If at first you don't succeed ...............

Thou saucy tardy-gaited giglet!
(not accurate this time!)

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