Professional Venue VS Community Theatre Company

Some interesting variations in the state of WA. Quick queston: "Is it still community theatre when performed in a professional location?" *Example: Established amateur community theatre group Have their own facility/theatre Book a professional venue (eg Burswood or Regal) Put on a musical production (eg Beauty and the Beast) Charge professional ticket pricing ($60 - $100 +) Maintain all funds/profit for amateur community group Is this still Community Theatre? Should it still be judged as community theatre? Should it be judged against other community theatres? Should it be permitted to enter community theatre awards (Finley etc..) Just trying to get my head around the different set up here than in NSW. I look forward to your thoughts. Anna x

Disclaimer : I don't live in WA but address this issue as a general one across Australia. What makes it stop being Community Theatre? It is still the same people doing it (with the possible exception of some of the technical crew) and presumably no-one is getting paid (although I would dearly like to actually look at the books on some of these productions). The scale does not in my opinion change the definition. A pro show is one in which the cast and crew are all working members of the industry who are either paid for their efforts or who receive a pay out as part of a co op. (Unless the co op doesn't make any money.) In Adelaide with the exception of The Hill Musical Society and SALOS all musicals are put on in spaces that I would call Professional Theatres. I.E They have full time professional paid staff running them as Management and technical. This does not mean that Northern Light Theatre Co, The Metropolitan Light Opera, The Gilbert and Sullivan Society, Marie Clarke Theatre Co or Therry are pro companies. They are not, they are community theatre and they should be proud of it. While we are here why have I seen MS Society productions on peoples CV's as Professional shows. They aren't. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

We discussed this recently in another thread... where.... I can't remember. Possibly in one of the review threads, or something. I agree entirely with Labrug. Pro is usually defined as to how the money is dealt with (cast and crew are given wages, or take part of the profits), and am. is usually defined as the money going directly back into the community group to pay for future productions (or in fact, to pay for other community services). It's not about the venue, it's about the mindset. Those in amateur (on a long-term basis) see it more as a hobby, or something to do in their spare time. Professionals see it as a career choice, one in which they hope to be paid for. I have known a great many pro companies working in 'amateur' venues (those less equipped than others), and vice versa. But indeed, pro companies work in 'amateur' facilities all the time: street theatre, non-traditional venues, performing on trams and in train stations... I know of one group that performed in the two front seats of a car, with three audience members sitting in the back for each show. It's definitely not about the venue. (Now someone go hunt for that thread I was thinking of!) Sticky Apple Legs www.thepromptcopy.com/sal Puppets in Melbourne www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

Burst away, but I swear I asked the question "what is a professional venue anyway?" in some recent thread. And we had a very small discussion (or maybe it was just me talking to myself :P) about pro. venues. Sticky Apple Legs www.thepromptcopy.com/sal Puppets in Melbourne www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

Got it: http://www.theatre.asn.au/musicals_and_opera/is_it_normal_to_be_charged_a_bond_in_amateur_musicals My post dated: Fri, 23/11/2007 - 17:25 Sticky Apple Legs www.thepromptcopy.com/sal Puppets in Melbourne www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

I agree with a number of the points raised on the initial post. I have a question for Anna. What is your thoughts on this seen as you asked the initial question? The Mandurah Performing Arts Centre would be classed as a professional venue yet it is used by amateur companies (please correct me if I am wrong) does this make the production a professional one? I think not! Also you have stated Beauty and the Beast as an example. I know for a fact that anyone using the Australian Productions set would have difficulty finding a venue to mount the production so they would have to look at putting it on at a professional venue. It is interesting though to note that certain companies that hold the rights to certain shows will not let amateur companies perform certain shows in some professional venues without charging that company professional rights!! I'm sure that this isn't the last we'll hear about these types of ventures by amateur theatre groups. Alex

Good point Alex ......... Sooooooo does your budget of $20k for The Hot Mikado at Limelight next year class itself as amateur or professional?? ONLY JOKING!!!!! Have heard about the size of your trunk from your last performance you did and will ceratinly come and see your next show. Do you do private performances? Love Linda x

Just a few comments on the initial posting... Hal Leonard (did I get that right?) who have the rights to "Beauty & The Beast" won't permit any Amateur production to be shown at an 'A1' class venue. I suspect the 'baited question' due to B&tB going on next year here in Perth had dreams of going on at Burswood and the above reason contributed to the change of venue. The cost of rights increase with a show when it is pro also. And there is naturally other factors... I'm always curious that some Am companies are doing rather well for themselves. Some are finding new and innovative ways to continue to be classed as Am. And as I read in a recent thread - Am Com Theatre companies are a thriving multi-million dollar industry. But here's a challenge & proposal. Essentially many people have their phases of enjoying acting (and thankfully some essential ones do so every spare minute)It is a fabulous platform to improve skills (& enjoy life). This is less the case with techs & muso's. There's fewer of them around that just want to work for free, and partly due to it being rather stressful. I don't know too many techs that want to mix coz it's fun. And muso's would be in the pub scene if they wanted to perform. (Or barely make it out of the garage for all the beer cans) So. Paid techs & muso's (and AD's, MD's & Choreo's) will improve the standard of a show because they really know their stuff. The Am companies that are at the head of the local industry have a responsibility to take it to the next step. Their shows will now train pro-am actors and the ladder of success can continue for individuals. The public are not stupid. They recognize and positively respond to strong productions. MPAC's 2nd week of Beauty & The Beast shows filled on the success of the 1st week. (All above roles were paid - if just a little)It's actually very affordable for many companies to do this. If they do it smart. The end result is a thriving & healthy industry that is supported by the public. This has little to do with the original post but I'm including it on the chance that committees can grasp the vision and help build local theatre into an industry that they themselves will thoroughly enjoy! ...come on, let's keep dancing... Luke

"The cost of rights increase with a show when it is pro also." This is actually incorrect, Pro rights are much much lower than Amateur rights, and that is because they expect more bums on seats, and higher budgets.

I don't think so - when buying music rights from APRA, if they know you're giving wages (or profits) to the cast and crew, the royalties increase. I don't know if it's the same with script royalties, but it's the same premise. There increase is probably there because the more pro. the group, the more likely they are of having a bigger venue - and therefore more seats. With APRA at any rate, they calculate royalties based on the venue size, the length of season, and the cost of the tickets. Sticky Apple Legs www.thepromptcopy.com/sal Puppets in Melbourne www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

I could be wrong Na, but last time I was talking to someone at Dominie at a symposium the question was raised to the licencing agents Dominie and at that time Warner Chappel and they actually said that pro rights were less. But as I said, happy to be wrong on this. Cal Don't let the Bastards Get You down.

Well I agree on one thing - I'm not sure either :) Someone else have any information proving that either royalties go up or not if you're a pro. group? Sticky Apple Legs www.thepromptcopy.com/sal Puppets in Melbourne www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au My puppets www.collectzing.com/collection/137/

I can't help really except to say that pro royalties on most book shows are a simple percentage which generally works out less than the ever increasing amount that is charged by the night for amateurs. I don'tvreally know for musicals at all. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

If we follow the first post to its logical conclusion then we would end up with an inability to compare any two or more productions. Firstly all Theatre Groups have differing means. Secondly all Theatre groups have differing talent pools. So taking these two points on board, should a Theatre group with its own venue be compared to a group that has to hire the shire hall? Should a Theatre group lacking in talent be compared with a Theatre group with a huge pool of talent? The answer in my view, is yes, if you put your hand up for comment, and you do as soon as you charge for tickets, then you take on board the inequalities and strive for excellence. If at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again, don't go into a sulk and cry foul, be your own worst critic. Any critic worth their salt will understand the limitations of a venue, but not the limitations of talent, directorial or otherwise. Chose your play/musical to suit your venue, chose your cast and crew to suit your play/musical. There have been many award winning productions done in black tabs.