This might be a chicken/egg type question, however...

Thu, 25 Jan 2007, 03:01 pm

SLE10 posts in thread

Just say one loves to sing and one is young and one wants to be an opera singer or in musicals or some kind of performance based career when one is older and one has singing lessons (classical) and piano lessons (doing exams for both), and one can dance a little but doesn't go to dance classes anymore because one has to eat, sleep, go to school and do other stuff as well :)

Singing teachers I've spoken to say all singers should be able to play the piano - so we've got that happening... but what about dancing?

Who has the easier future here - a dancer who can sing a bit, or a singer who can dance a bit and also play piano?

My daughter has classical singing and piano lessons and also swims (and she wins medals so she's not keen to give up the swimming yet and I want her to do fun stuff she enjoys, too), so at the moment there is little room for any more activity... I'm just wondering how important it is or even if it is necessary for her to go to ballet classes or something... she's not interested in becoming a dancer - she wants to sing.

Opinions... advice, etc. welcome and thank you all in advance :)

DFE

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SLEThu, 25 Jan 2007, 03:01 pm

Singing teachers I've spoken to say all singers should be able to play the piano - so we've got that happening... but what about dancing?

Who has the easier future here - a dancer who can sing a bit, or a singer who can dance a bit and also play piano?

Opinions... advice, etc. welcome and thank you all in advance :)

DFE

LogosThu, 25 Jan 2007, 09:22 pm

A singer

tends to have a longer career than a dancer. Nowadays of course they all want to be triple threats Singer Dancer Actor but if she really loves singing ... There are as you say only so many hours in the day. I would also encourage the piano playing as if she intends to go to a Conservertory when she grows up a second instrument is essential (treating voice as one) and a third couldn't hurt. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Walter PlingeThu, 25 Jan 2007, 10:53 pm

let her choose

Dance is funny isn't it. I have to admit, with no dance training in me, i often have troubles getting parts. So yeah get hr in something just for coordination, then if she wants a career, she can take it up later on easily. But really, How old is she? let her Decide if she wants to go to dance classes! Most will let her take the first few free to decide if she liks it, then go from there. At her young age now, it's always likely she'll decide soon anough that she hates this ole performing biz anyway! And the other idea, get her into diving.. which is tranfrance to gymnastics, which is tranferance to dance. Ie, if she can do one, she'll have no trouble with the other.

SLEFri, 26 Jan 2007, 12:27 am

to dance or not to dance... that is the question...

She has had dancing classes before when she was younger but stopped to do other things she wanted to experience. I'm all for her trying lots of things and the choice is always hers. the reason I'm asking about dancing is because she has asked me, and as I've said here so often, what I know would fit on a pinhead so asking me for advice in these matters is a bit daft :) So I told her I'd ask the folks here because you guys have the experience.

The little she did has helped her already - there are some who think she already does dancing because she picks it up well and moves gracefully - but she's limited to very basic things. She was wondering if she'd get more opportunities if she did dancing. If she took it up it would only be because it would be furthering her 'goal' for want of a better word, and not because it's a passion... she really only has 3 passions in life: singing, piano and acting... oh, sorry, and swimming...

And as for her growing out of her "passion" for the performing arts - she's been this way since she stood up in nappies and could grab neighbours or anyone who came to the front door and could make them sit down so she could perform for them... and no, I am not exaggerating. :) Even now if you ask her what she wants to be when she grows up - there isn't even a second's hesitation... she's always said the same thing ever since she could talk. Of course, she may change her mind and want to be something else and that is her decision, but as I have decided to support her regardless of what she is doing, right now, I'm supporting her in this the only way I know how - which for the moment, is get the right information and advice for her so she can make informed decisions and choices.

Is dancing something she could take up in her teen years if she decided to add that? Does the sort of dance, if you guys think she should incorporate it if her goal is to go into the performing arts, have to be ballet or could she just do jazz? Or are there plenty of roles out there for singers who don't have to dance, or just do very basic steps that non-dancers can easily do?

I should mention, my daughter does not see herself in a chorus role... :) And I can imagine what you're thinking and it would be wasted to say anything because those who try to pop her dream, or put her off her goal, she just shakes her head and feels sorry for them for being so negative and will quickly point out that it is just as well the likes of Dame Kiri Te Kanawa and Yvonne Kenny and Dame Joan Sutherland and Judy Garland and whoever... didn't let anybody tell them to forget their dreams or lower their sights because that only happened to "other people" etc. or we wouldn't have them. Her other favourite admonition is 'big stars don't have to come from big cities'.

My daughter is just 9 but she has set herself goals and has done this, herself, since she was about 7. She knows about WAAPA and has her sights set on attending there too. In fact, she's only just going into grade 5 this year and she's already worrying about whether she stays at her present school for year 8 or tries for a scholarship to a school in Perth with a brilliant musical program. She's 9! None of her friends think this way. I don't know where she gets it from. (Actually, I think I do know where she gets it from... she sings with the Senior choir at school as well as the junior choir - I don' t know for fact but perhaps she's heard the senior girls discuss things like that and this is how she knows about it... I don't know where else she'd get her info from.)

Anyhow, right now she just wants to know should she worry about dance classes just now or not or never... I say, humour her - we have nothing to lose and who knows, maybe one day she will be a star! Or maybe she'll be a dental assistant... or a marine biologist... or a checkout chick... whatever... and if that happens, I'll go find a list that can answer the questions that she'll ask then, or maybe by then she'll be old enough to ask them herself :)

So the question is still open - majority opinion will probably rule - just know that she wants to know, not me, the choice IS hers and she just wants to hear it from the experts :)

Thanks!

DFE

crgwllmsFri, 26 Jan 2007, 12:35 am

Dancing around the subject

If we assume your daughter is a natural in singing and in dancing (and forget for the moment that she's not interested in becoming a dancer..!)... I'm aware of quite a few examples of people who have sung in musicals professionally but never really studied music (I'd count myself as one). But I'm not really aware of any people who have danced seriously in musicals who hadn't studied dancing. (I'm talking serious dancing, not the kind of box step they get celebs to do in a musical because they can't do anything else. Same with singing.) If faced with a choice of only one to study, I'd go for dance, because I think there's relatively more to be gained by study. Not that singing training isn't important and beneficial, but like I said I've known people who've trained themselves or get by on raw talent in singing, but not nearly so often in dance. It seems easier to get singing experience on your own, or to get good advice casually from other singers. Dance seems (to me) to require more specific training. But honestly, if the desire isn't really there I wouldn't be forcing it. It's got to come from something she wants to do. Maybe deep down she'd rather be a rally driver. >>Singing teachers I've spoken to say all singers should be able to play the piano Don't those singing teachers really mean 'all singing teachers' should be able to play the piano ? I think that sort of statement is a singing teacher focussing on what's been important and useful to THEM, but not necessarily to the student. Yes, playing the piano is a wonderful skill for a singer and can lead to amazing opportunities...but don't confuse the two skills - there are innumerable examples of succesful singers who didn't need to know how to play an instrument. Why not become a dancer who plays piano at the same time? Wouldn't that be a unique, marketable gimmick? ...Or a rally driver who sings? Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\---------

LogosFri, 26 Jan 2007, 09:59 am

It's all good advice but

It's all good advice but lets look at where she might want to go. She loves Opera, well that means conservatory training and dance is Ok but not essential. On the other hand, for conservatory training multi instrument is almost essential. You have to have more than one instrument of which voice is one. And I beg to differ from Craig in that for Opera formal training of the voice is essential. You will not get by on raw talent alone. For Musical theatre dance is probably essential so if that is where she wants to go then she needs some dance. At her age she doesn't need formal ballet training (she has probably missed the boat for becoming a classical ballet dancer and I bet saying that gets me into trouble)I would suggest a reputable dance school that does a general dance course with an introduction to a variety of styles including the modern ones. It would probably be a good idea to discuss this with the Conservatory or WA opera for advice as to the best way for her to proceed. It's early enough that she doesn't have to make a final decision but I still think the formal voice training is very important if she is thinking about Opera. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au

Tari-XalyrFri, 26 Jan 2007, 11:21 am

A Point or two

I have had basic jazz training and basic circus training. I did circus when i was younger and it helped me alot with movement and flexability when it came to jazz. I found it easy to begin jazz when I was 13 but my sister on the other hand wanted to study Ballet and she never made it into a dance school because she was "too old" to look at it professionally. So she taught herself for two years and my god is she good. She taught herself all the way to an advanced ballet level in 2yrs! Then she was able to get into a dance school and have a class where most people were around her age. My point being. If it's ballet you want to look for, by my experience basic training at a young age - even if it's not for a long time period - would help her pick up dance further along the line because of basic movement and increased flexability. My second point. I play clarinet, sax, drums and am looking at learning piano. (I have a very musical family) I recently sold my sax, my other sister has the srum kit and I am focusing on Clarinet. I began drums when I was 6. Gave them up. Started clarinet when I was 11, sax 12, drums again at 12 and at nearly 18 am looking at beginning piano lessons. bTo add to this I don't sing (although am having to learn soon enough) but from what I hear, see and so forth piano and singing is always a good combination and if she wishes to pick up another instrument later on. Piano is the basis - sort of like ballet - for most if not all instruments and she'll know bass and treble so she has no limit on what instrument she can choose. Okay my two extended cents worth. . .I shall now retreat into my little hole. . . ~ Tari The Writer is a child forever listening at the keyhole of the adult world.

SLEFri, 26 Jan 2007, 11:25 am

also unique...

Or even MORE unique... picture this...

An opera singer, doing ballet on TOP of a baby grand while tinkering the ivories with her toes!

My daughter primarily is interested in opera though. When she was little she saw an ad on telly where they were singing opera - was it for some bank or insurance or something? Anyhow, from that moment on she was hooked! I think she was about 6... I guess if the universe didn't make 6 year olds interested in opera, we wouldn't have any opera because most kids want to grow up and be pop singers :) She likes Gilbert and Sullivan and Mozart and sings along with the coloratura's parts... sings along with all the soprano's parts that she likes... she's even singing now, in fact... she's at her computer playing one of her games and singing The Sun Whose Rays Are All Ablaze :)

I wouldn't let her 'teach herself' to sing or 'get by' singing - it's a bit more complicated than that. And I'm still not sure about dance classes for her - I'm not convinced - not been enough replies to sway me one way or another. I watched Beauty and the Beast at MPAC and didn't notice Belle doing any demanding dance routines - but her voice was outstanding... the narrator of Joseph and his Amazing...etc... doesn't do any serious dancing either... the girl who played Sandy in Grease didn't either... so I'm just not convinced.

As I'm the one controlling the budget here, I will let her do things but within reason - I'm not made of money, but if something is important to her that she wants to do, that will get serious consideration... she's querying whether she should also learn "proper dancing" because to take that up she'll have to quit one of her other loves - swimming. I think she might have swimming out of her system in another couple of years perhaps and by then she'll be 11/12 years - that's not too late to start "proper dancing" lessons is it? That is, if she needs it. That's the question I think - does she need it?

She might end up doing none of this, realize :) Or she might turn into another Delta Goodrem because she's started writing songs now too - she enjoys that... so maybe she'll end up a singer/songwriter instead... (her current song she's made up is like a mini opera song and its about an owl with evil eyes!!! No, no, there is no need to say anything - let's just move right along...), or as I said before, maybe she'll end up a dental assistant or some other job but I bring her up to do what she believes in and what she is passionate about, because if you love what you are doing, it doesn't feel like work, and really life is too short to spend it on miserable or mediocre things.

So more opinions please... what about folks in the industry doing this - what do you reckon? At the moment I am telling her no she can't do dance classes because she is doing too much and it's costing me a fortune so something has to go and that is likely to be swimming, but she doesn't want to give that up - so it boils down to this - knowing what she wants to do when she's older, sort of, swimming won't be a part of that, she doesn't hate dancing, she likes dancing and she'd go if there were enough hours in the day and I had enough money and she didn't have to give up anything else!

Failing that I will see if I can find an understanding dance teacher who would just let her do one class a week and not have to do performances and shows so we can avoid the extra costs with costumes etc. I don't know if such a teacher exists, but one could look and one would look if the overwhelming majority here all said yes, dance is a must, do it. But if people say, no, she doesn't have to learn "proper" dancing, she can still have a great career as a singer who can dance a "little" rather than a dancer who can sing a little, then I'll save my money, or if folks say she can take it up when she's a teenager, that's fine too because I can tell her to relax and enjoy her swimming for a few more years.

I just want to do the right thing by her and for her... but in this case, I don't know what the right thing is :) And she's worrying that maybe she should be doing it now... I don't know how to advise her - I don't know what to tell her so she can choose herself.

Maybe it is just children's roles that dancers who can't sing or can sing a little get more opportunities, rather than singers who can dance a little? ???

DFE

SLEFri, 26 Jan 2007, 11:46 am

Logos, your advice is worth bottling and keeping :)

Thanks to everyone... I think what I'm getting and if I've misunderstood feel free and tell me :), but she can keep going as she is and some time within the next few years she can pick up a general dance class because that will be enough for her? She totally does not want to be a ballerina when she grows up :) She wants to be an opera singer or be in musicals on Broadway (her current fave is Into the Woods - I got her the DVD for Xmas and we get a lot of that around the house now).

I think, for her, at the moment, being a singer who can dance a little will serve her given also that THAT is the way her priorities are in her mind too. But I wasn't sure how old she could be to pick up a general dance class... Plus I quite like her swimming and having a non-theatre type interest and activity in life... I think it is important to have a balance, especially when you're just 9 :)

Another thing to consider is her age now - and when she is a teenager she is more likely possibly to know which direction she wants to head and vocally we'll have a better chance of knowing whether she'll be able to consider Opera or whether she'll have to think of something else - which might need more dancing :) which of course brings us back to if that happens, should she have started dance lessons now...

one could go crazy thinking of this stuff, couldn't one! Speaking of which, anyone seen my straight jacket??? I'm sure I wasn't like that when I was 9!

DFE

RapunzelFri, 26 Jan 2007, 02:53 pm

Yet more two cents worth...

Yet more two cents worth...I'd say you possibly need to gather up some chutzpah and go ask the experts, that is WA Opera, or whatever they're called. They may well say that some form of dance is a good idea, the days of an opera singer just standing and belting out their arias are gone with the wind (you can thank Joan for that, she insisted on running and signing in the mad scene in Lucia). However, the swimming is obviously helping keep her fit and she's definitely learning coordination so that's got to be good. Having worked in London, no it's not glamourous, just darn hard work, on the fringe circuit the one's who do best have had some training in all areas. Personally I am an actor/singer/dancer, in that order. To make it to the top in musical theatre there you must be a singer/dancer/actor, equal strengths. Of course there are exceptions, naturals who have very little training in one area BUT they are exceptions, so why hinder yourself? She's nine, there's still time for her to decide what she wants to do. But I would say that if the opportunity arises to do just one class a week in a general dance style it would be well worth her while, no matter if she goes for opera or MT. On the other hand, she might chuck the whole thing and become an astronaut! Did you watch Operatunity? If not, buy/rent the series. It is well worth watching and worth noting that the finalists nearly all had training, even if it was self taught. Note also the types of classes they had to undergo, including movement, fitness, dance, acting, etc. The natural bass won, mostly because, and I quote "he's a bassinet" but "you don't find these growing under trees". Rapunzel. "Papa, where is Mama? They tell me she has gone away, where is she?"

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