Is Shakespeare "as boring as bat shit "?

Sun, 9 Nov 2008, 10:00 pm

stinger102 posts in thread

When I was in high school and Shakespeare was compulsory, I used to love the stories (plenty of sex and violence) but hated the language. Why could he have not said the same thing in plain and simple words? And why should we Aussies have to learn about old Pommie poets anyway? When I was at uni in the 70s, I had a small part in the scottish play. I had one long speech to remember. It was most daunting, until it was pointed out to me that it was written in iambic pentameter, so that once the actor got into the rhythm, the actual words just seemed to flow. As I matured, I began to appreciate the whole canon more and more. I realised that Shakespeare had contibuted more to the development of the English language than any other single person (with the possible exception of Chaucer). Moreover, it was not only great literature, but if you could tap into the language, it was great theatre as well. Nowadays, it stikes me that any theatre actor worth his or her salt has done, and yearns to do more Shakespeare, as an important aspect of their artistic development. Not only that, but the plays never seem to lose their audience appeal. Finally, I regard myself as a devotee of Australian dramatic works and historical narratives. I value our national heritage to the point of jingoism. Having said that, I regard Shakespeare as just as much a part of our heritage as Britain's. I therefore categorically disagree with the above proposition.

Thread (102 posts)

Threaded Flat

Peter HowcroftWed, 12 Nov 2008, 08:25 pm

Whenever I see a group of

Whenever I see a group of women together I always think aloud, Act 1 scene 1 The Scottish play. How's that for sexism. As for the bible, each to their own but , boring for me.I would prefer a Shakespear to a James. lol.

Grant MalcolmWed, 12 Nov 2008, 10:34 pm

That play...

Snap, Logos. I was fortunate to direct that play in the New Fortune Theatre in 1997.

The experience was unmarred except for an early omen and a single incident.

The climactic confrontation was a tightly choreographed piece that included a moment where Macbeth throws down his sword refusing to fight. Undeterred, Banquo charges across the stage at the unarmed Macbeth, his sword raised and makes a downward slash as Macbeth performs a forward roll retrieving his sword to rise behind Banquo. The downward slash neatly masked the fact that Macbeth's forward roll occured a good metre upstage and well clear of the charging Banquo. Worked a treat for the first couple of weeks but returning for a later performance I was concerned to see the downward slash slipping sideways in danger of becoming a swipe at Macbeth's legs as they flew through the air in the roll.

I called in the fight choreographer for some remedial work with the actors. In spite of this work, on the closing night, an enthusiastic Banquo swiped again at Macbeth's legs with a heavy steel sword smashing into the back of Macbeth's calf. Thankfully Macbeth was wearing a sturdy pair of boots that reduced the impact to severe bruising. His howls of rage as he climbed the stairs and was chased off across the balcony had a particular edge that night. He needed to be supported on stage for his final curtain call but was back in to lend a hand with bump out the next day.

The early omen was, well, ominous. Our designer was preparing huge coloured banners and flags sporting devices based on the Macbeth heraldic crest. The early sketches included stylised suggestions of the crest but the designer was keen to research and employ the authentic item. I turned up to the workshop one day to pitch in and found her in the midst of painting a 1.5m image of my family crest on a 11 metre length of cloth. "No", she replied, "That's the Macbeth crest." And dragged a heavily bookmarked tome as evidence.

Macbeth and Malcolm clans share the same family crest.

:jawdrop:

Regards
Grant

--
Director, actor and administrator of this website

crgwllmsWed, 12 Nov 2008, 11:59 pm

Drama turgid

The exact meaning of a Dramaturg (I've just tried looking it up) is a little bit vague. There are several definitions, some which I would describe more as an 'Artistic Programmer', responsible for choosing the plays in a company's season. But my understanding and usage is that dramaturgy is defined as 'shaping a story or like elements into a form that can be acted'. Dramaturgy gives the work or the performance a structure. More than actual writing, a dramaturg's work might be closer defined as designing. So I disagree with your notion that a dramaturg 'tells a writer how to rewrite his plays'. A dramaturg tells the writer how to make them work onstage. If this means the playwright then needs to edit or rewrite, so be it. If the playwright has a different 'agenda', maybe s/he should be writing novels instead. Yes, often a good playwright is effectively their own dramaturg. But having witnessed many scripts offered by writers who considered it 'performance-ready', only to then go through extensive change and redrafting before it was actually fit to be performed...I can attest that many playwrights (even established ones) benefit from someone acting as dramaturg (even if it means the director and actors) before it becomes a workable drama. As I've said before a script isn't a play...it's a blueprint to give the builders. The writer shouldn't see it as a perfect finished product. If it was, it would be a piece of literature to be read and not to be performed. When really it's merely the first step of a work-in-progress. And if the dramaturg isn't already conducting readings with experienced actors, they're probably not doing their job. Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\--------- (PS 'dramaturg' and 'dramaturge' seem to both be correct and interchangeable in the sources I looked up.)

GarrethThu, 13 Nov 2008, 12:43 am

Havcing just had this exp.

Having just had this exp. I agree whole heartedly!

NaThu, 13 Nov 2008, 03:50 am

"More than actual writing,

"More than actual writing, a dramaturg's work might be closer defined as designing." I'd say a dramaturg is more like an editor for theatre; the concepts are similar. An editor is there to help shape the novel, give advice on how to structure it, characters, development of ideas, and generally refine the work. Dramaturgy is not really that different. Round head foam puppet pattern at Puppets in Melbourne

crgwllmsThu, 13 Nov 2008, 08:31 am

Ed & Des

>>An editor is there to help shape the novel, give advice on how to structure it, characters, development of ideas, and generally refine the work. So an editor's work on a novel might also be defined as designing. Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\---------

LabrugThu, 13 Nov 2008, 08:52 am

Qutation Marks

Grant, can I quote and use this in something I am doing regarding fight direction?

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Home Page
Yahoo Blog Page

SN Profile

NaThu, 13 Nov 2008, 10:00 am

Not really. ... It's more

Not really. ... It's more nuanced than I make it sound. The writer is always the 'designer', the editor is just there to help polish it. I was always taught that as the editor, you can suggest changes, but ultimately the writer has veto power. Maybe editing is more like a consultant... Round head foam puppet pattern at Puppets in Melbourne

Walter PlingeThu, 13 Nov 2008, 12:04 pm

Even more shameless plug.

What? Are you sure it's the 5th, 6th, 12th and 13th of December at Woodlake Amphitheatre, Ellenbrook and that you should call 0414 47 47 37 to book your tickets for this FREE performance. Well tickle me Fanny, I'll be there!

crgwllmsThu, 13 Nov 2008, 12:23 pm

Veto-Ed

>>I was always taught that as the editor, you can suggest changes, but ultimately the writer has veto power. Tell that to any journalist. Or film scriptwriter. Or newly-published novelist. And really, why should a playwright be more precious, when that medium more than any (well, on a par with film) is a collaborative process? It would surely be a rare writer who can afford to be so secure as to insist on veto power. Or if they do, it's a rarer one again who's work is beyond improvement from outside eyes. Yes, many of them play writer/editor/dramaturg rolled into one, but if the roles are split for a reason, I would think the point would be to give them more power than mere consultancy. Your model assumes a hierarchy with writer at the top of the ladder, passing it down to consultants who pass it back to the writer at the top until the work is finished...a piece of text. I view it more as a horizontal timeline, where the work itself is what's important, and everyone passing it along contributes their skills at any stage until it gets to its final destination...a performance for an audience. Feel free to edit me. and enjoy the feeling of power...! Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\---------

JoeMcThu, 13 Nov 2008, 02:16 pm

Jeff don't forget to spit

Jeff don't forget to spit over your Left shoulder [being the devils side] & then knock on the door!

NaThu, 13 Nov 2008, 03:17 pm

Ummm.... I've worked as a

Ummm.... I've worked as a journalist. And I've written plays. And I've worked as both an editor and a proofreader. It is a nuanced collaboration (perhaps I haven't been clear in what I mean by the relationship between writer and editor), and if the editor is good, they will work with the playwright/writer; perhaps I've been lucky to only ever have good writers and editors to work with. ;) Yes there are heaps of editors and writers out there who argue constantly over how to write something; but the important thing is that at the end of the day, you can't force a writer to write something they don't want to do. If that were true, half of the novels out there wouldn't have been written or published anyway. I'm not saying writers should be precious; I was referring to the idea that dramaturgs have the right to force a piece of writing down a road that the playwright doesn't agree with. There's a difference between arguing against a plot change that would completely change the meaning of the play - something that was told to me by a dramaturg - and arguing over whether or not a full stop is more appropriate than an exclamation point. Round head foam puppet pattern at Puppets in Melbourne

Walter PlingeThu, 13 Nov 2008, 04:15 pm

Journalists often have

Journalists often have their work re-written by a sub-editor and the first they know about it is when they see it in print.

JoeMcFri, 14 Nov 2008, 12:06 am

What gets up my nose, when

What gets up my nose, when I was a wee'n working back stage at the local 'Playehoos', 'Dee'n aa wor Willy' season.

Which often was a series of his plays done on separate alternating show nights. Even on the Wednesday [half shopping day] matinée.

Backstage the majority of actors would speak in the common tongue 'Geordie', but on stage they would bung on, as though they had a plumbs in their gobs.

For me it wasn't until the BBC TV, back in the late '50's, did a series of his works, where the actors used their normal everday dialect & accents, without adding the 'Kensington Gore' BBC speak. That I really started to appreciate the works at all, because it became a normal, sure dated, but commonly used assortment of accents, without any pretence!

jmuzzFri, 14 Nov 2008, 08:28 am

Dee'n aa wor Willy?

I've spent five minutes trying to work my way through that one and I'm not going to get any rest until gaafa antes up and tells us what the hell that means in english.

LabrugFri, 14 Nov 2008, 08:51 am

Heh?

Come on jmuzz. It's as easy as double dutch. ;-)

Seriously, Gafaa, I get what you are saying and agree. There is something to be said for speaking SS in yokel speak rather than the Queen's best presentation english. Particularly scenes like the Grave Digger in Hamlet, the Constabulary in Much Ado and the pompish foppery of Toby and crew in 12th Night.

I also agree that those productions I have seen that have used a range of accents, tones and so forth add an extra dynamic and stops the play or reading from being too consistent.

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Home Page
Yahoo Blog Page

SN Profile

Lee SheppardFri, 14 Nov 2008, 11:09 am

Interesting for "locals"

Given all this talk about Shakespeare it's interesting to see that 4 of the auditions available for Perth for December are Shakespeare related - two "classics" and two "send ups". And they are all still so tempting for a man of my age - parts for actors that aren't still in their 20s. Now, if only I had the confidence to actually audition.... Lee Sheppard - Keeping it strictly amateur -

LabrugFri, 14 Nov 2008, 11:19 am

I noted

Yes, I noticed that also. Pity they are all on AT THE SAME TIME!!!! Looks like I'll have to choose one. Actually, I think there may be more than 4 total. I don't think they are all listed...

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Home Page
Yahoo Blog Page

SN Profile

NormaFri, 14 Nov 2008, 04:09 pm

I noted

Well, I do have a vested interest, so I declare it now-but Romeo & Juliet will be the most enjoyable!!

LabrugFri, 14 Nov 2008, 04:12 pm

Battle Royal

Oh dear. Looks like it's about to become The Battle of the Shakespearian. :LOL:

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Home Page
Yahoo Blog Page

SN Profile

JoeMcFri, 14 Nov 2008, 05:08 pm

'Dee'n aa wor Willy'

'Dee'n aa wor Willy' season.

"Doing an our Willy season" -'

Wor Willy' was also a comic strip character, in the Newcastle Evening chronicle newspaper. Available on Tyneside [NE UK]

He would invariably be seated on an up turned metal bucket, contemplating the questions at hand, from aspects raised.

Hence the link with the Bard.

Depending on how 'wor Willy' viewed it. Whether or not "the bard is bacon, or the bacon is the bard"?

Tari-XalyrFri, 14 Nov 2008, 05:40 pm

hmmm

Thank you fot those intersting historical facts, Craig.:) The Writer is a child forever listening at the keyhole of the adult world.

Jodie HansenFri, 14 Nov 2008, 07:23 pm

The Scottish Play

One of the best good luck charms I've ever used onstage is saying "Good Luck MacBeth" prior to the show starting. I've never had a problem onstage since using it.... Another girlfriend said it originally as a stir and it's been FANTASTIC.... My two cents worth....

Walter PlingeFri, 14 Nov 2008, 07:48 pm

A little bird told me that

A little bird told me that Stephen Lee is on the lookout for a Hamlet for a professional production next July/August...anon

crgwllmsFri, 14 Nov 2008, 08:47 pm

Faecal Facts

Thanks. It's not often that I get appreciated for talking so much shit. Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\---------

NoFri, 14 Nov 2008, 09:25 pm

Tora Tora Tora

Right let's not forget it - but what has that got to do with anything? "Tora Tora Tora!" [from the film title being japanese for 'Attack Attack Attack!"]

NaFri, 14 Nov 2008, 10:05 pm

Please note 'No', that I

Please note 'No', that I have emailed you and reported you to the site admin: you are using my copyrighted image, and I would like you to remove it as an avatar. While I respect your right to satirise me and criticise me, you have no right to use my logo for that, particularly as it's my business logo. Round head foam puppet pattern at Puppets in Melbourne

Greg RossFri, 14 Nov 2008, 10:11 pm

Re: Revamping Bat Shit

Hmm!

Perhaps I should audition for one of the productions - I could do the skull! ... if properly directed. Juliet? Well, my Aunty Jack is quite wonderful, if I say so myself, but methinks my Juliet would be, well, shall we say more Pricilla than precise, No, maybe the bewitched Scottish bloke? Hang on, Grim baby, haven't you just written something for a wee Scott?

I think that's me. Now, I have to book tickets for the forthcoming Oz play at Garrick.

All Good Things

Greg Ross

Minister for Good Times

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeFri, 14 Nov 2008, 11:04 pm

As opposed to shakespeare,

As opposed to shakespeare, ever loving, peacefull and blood free...

Log in to reply

jmuzzSat, 15 Nov 2008, 09:24 am

Oh, here we go

Given that the over-riding message of the bible is one of salvation through belief in a God of love I'd gently suggest Jesse that you've made the same mistake as those people we describe as fundamentalists or extremists.....you've read between the lines which is a little sloppy if you're going to write a book review. I'm not a practising christian anymore but I take offence if you're going to sling poorly argued word-arrows at a major religion. That's a bigots attitude you got there and you should check that in and exchange it for a big helping of open-mindedness and tolerance.

Log in to reply

jmuzzSat, 15 Nov 2008, 09:38 am

Oh Thank God!

It was going to drive me mad. Oh, and Jeff, totally agree about employing different accents although Melissa raised an eyebrow when we did the reading of "As You Like It" and I employed a broad aussie twang for one of the characters. Shakespeare goes well with glaswegian accents as well so I've discovered. Fake french accent ala 'Allo 'Allo - not so good.

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeMon, 17 Nov 2008, 10:12 am

never had a problem onstage

That I would suggest is for others to judge...

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeMon, 17 Nov 2008, 10:16 am

if I say so myself

Does this mean the self-styled "Minister for Good Times" has changed his opinion about Shakespeare or merely about bat shit?

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeMon, 17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm

Selflishly Sylish

My dear Mr Cowpat, or may I call you Walter? Love your style and the gentle humour within. Firstly, may I state that the title "Minister for Good Times," was given to me 14 or 15 years ago, by a much loved mentor, who sadly has passed on to the great yacht and car club wine bars in the heavens - one Noel Semmens - and I have proudly worn the tag ever since. From memory, it was after a particulary taxing boat trip during an Australia Cup yacht racing series, when I was instructing guests on how not to spill chardonnay from their glasses, while swimming in Cockburn Sound. As to changing my mind about the Bard, Cate Blanchett is calling me and that is a Siren call! - now there was a movie! But as usual, I digress. I'm always willing to learn and admit to being wrong - maybe I just haven't heard or seen the old boy done well? Others were right when they mentioned complete boredom with it all at school. I'd certainly give a role in one of his works a go, (in terms of auditioning, directors may well think otherwise). Perhap with my aquiline, (OK, hooked), nose, beard and eye for a deal, I could audition for Shylock, then of course, some may say the role of a fool would come naturally, either way, I would expect no mercy while straining for quality. All Good Things Greg The Minister for Good Times

Log in to reply

Freddie BadgeryWed, 19 Nov 2008, 12:34 am

Why not check the poster?

Yes I am sure, because I've just gone and looked at the Shakespeare on the Lake: The Taming if the Shrew poster! Ooh! Aah! Taming of the Shrew poster! freddie the rocking jedi badger

Log in to reply

stingerWed, 19 Nov 2008, 11:23 am

A Feast of Bardolatry

I now note that Old Mill have taken the opportunity of this thread to publicise their 'Romeo & Juliet' while Upstart have positively hijacked it with their 'Taming of the Shrew' hype. I feel it is only fair to also mention Grads' 'Merchant of Venice', Harbour's 'Elsie and Norm's Macbeth and Playlovers' 'I hate Hamlet'. I wish them all the very best and sincerely hope and trust that there are sufficient audients in Perth who do not find Shakespeare as tiresome as flying rodent faeces. Ssstinger>>>

Log in to reply

PHILLIP MACKENZIEWed, 19 Nov 2008, 01:10 pm

BARDOLATRY BARGAINS

I wonder if the four companies listed by Stinger would consider collaborating in offering a 'Shakespeare Pass' which might, for instance, give the four shows for the price of three? Or if, as speculated there is to be a Hamlet in 2009, five-for-four? Or add The Shrew and make it six-for-four? What a bargain! No need to mention that the latter is free, anyway. FLIPMAC

Log in to reply

TrickiSun, 23 Nov 2008, 04:42 pm

Couldn't agree more!

Log in to reply

JoeMcSun, 23 Nov 2008, 06:28 pm

factory's Hamlet - London

Usually performed at a secret venue & the punters bring the props, to be used in the show!

http://godwin.thisislondon.co.uk/2008/01/is-this-a-marro.html

http://www.remotegoat.co.uk/event_view.php?uid=19407

Log in to reply

stingerSun, 23 Nov 2008, 07:52 pm

Cate Blanchett is calling me

What movie was that? Hope I haven't missed one! Ssstinger>>>

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeMon, 24 Nov 2008, 01:29 pm

Shakespeare In Love?

I have looked through Cate Blanchett's filmography and can't find ANY Shakespeare at all. The nearest I can find is 'Elizabeth' (1998) - for which she was nominated for an Academy Award or Elizabeth: The Golden Age (2007). Interestingly, Cate was pipped in 1998 by Gwyneth Paltrow for her role in 'Shakespeare In Love', opposite Joseph ("longneck")Fiennes, with Dame Judy as QEI. Gwyneth was certainly red hot in that flick, but whether she really deserved the Oscar ahead of Cate is a moot point. Also as it happens, our Geoffrey (Rush)was in all three flicks. -Come to think about it - maybe it is Gwyneth the honourable 'Minister' is fantasizing about rather than Cate? Maybe he thinks they are really the same person - or maybe he just had one too many 'good times' before he 'digressed'?

Log in to reply

crgwllmsMon, 24 Nov 2008, 04:06 pm

The sirens are coming to take him away ha-ha....

Greg wrote: >>and that is a Siren call! - now there was a movie! I'm assuming you guys are right off the point with the filmography search because of Greg being rather incoherent with his digressing non-sequiturs... Cate is probably calling him because she is starring in The Sydney Theatre Company's production of 'War Of The Roses' (a condensed version of 8 of Shakespeare's history plays) at the Perth Festival, which I guess he is 'called' to purchase tickets for. I'm guessing, however, the movie he refers to was 'Sirens' which had Kate Fischer, Portia De Rossi and Elle MacPherson naked...which seems to have distracted his brain somewhat. How Greg skipped from the first thought to the next with his 'Siren call' is anyone's guess... Cheers, Craig ~<8>-/====\---------

Log in to reply

Greg RossMon, 24 Nov 2008, 06:14 pm

Craig is Utterly Correct

Craig is of course, completely correct in his assumptions, by way of explanation - wine, well, perhaps a malt and the fact that it's all rather fun. Even more so now, I've just read that Garrick has some great stuff in 2009, for which a middle aged rambling lunatic like me could audition!

All Good Things

Greg

Greg Ross

Minister for Good Times

Log in to reply

GarrethThu, 27 Nov 2008, 01:09 am

The Taming IF the shrew? So

The Taming IF the shrew? So old willie has written a new one, eh? He's a crafty old bugger!

Log in to reply

stingerFri, 28 Nov 2008, 12:19 am

Joseph "Giraffe" Fiennes

I think young Joey was also in 'Elizabeth' - as HER lover - (whatsisname?) - so he got to do love scenes with both Cate and Gwyn in one year! No wonder we haven't seen him since! Ssstinger>>>

Log in to reply

GarrethFri, 28 Nov 2008, 02:38 am

Hijacked?... Well, what

Hijacked?... Well, what else would you expect of an Upstart? ;) Taming of the Shrew 5th-6th, 12th-13th Dec 7pm Woodlake Amphitheatre, Ellenbrook Did we mention it's FREE?!!! And I would also like to thank the stinger for his well wishes and would like to pass on my best wishes to all those other companies now auditioning for next year!

Log in to reply

marcieSat, 29 Nov 2008, 03:19 pm

Shakespeare

I love Shakespeare - the language, the imagery, the characters and the themes. I love the fact that to me so much seems still relevant after all this time. But in school it needs to be handled carefully and it depends so much on how it's performed. I've seen some dreadful productions (one of them a West End Hamlet starring a very well-known English film and stage actor) including a few woeful attempts at Macbeth. I slept through the second half of Timon of Athens when I was 16 - we'd left home at 4 am to get to Stratford to watch Paul Schofield talking in his pit. But there have been lots of lovely productions too. Locally, I really enjoyed Midsummer Night's Dream by the Uni Grads Society (sorry if the name's wrong, having a mental blank) a few years back. They really played up the double meanings and it was great fun. There are some lovely made-for-TV films which make a good introduction to Shakespeare but I don't know if I'm allowed to mention those here.

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeThu, 4 Dec 2008, 11:41 am

Is Shakespeare as boring as

Is Shakespeare as boring as bat shit? NO! So come and see 'The Taming of the Shrew' at Ellenbrook Amphitheatre this Friday and Saturday and next Friday and Saturday at 7pm. cheers, Utterly Shameless Plug...

Log in to reply

stingerThu, 22 Jan 2009, 09:47 am

I may have missed them, but...

...would someone be kind enough to post cast lists for R&J and MOV please? Ssstinger>>>

Log in to reply

Walter PlingeThu, 22 Jan 2009, 10:43 am

And maybe you might like to

And maybe you might like to put the show on the "What's On" part of this website, so we don't have to resort to psychic ability to know where it is or how much the tickets are!

Log in to reply

← Back to Green Room Gossip